Overcome - A Mental Health Podcast

7,000 Miles for Suicide Awareness: Thomas Brown’s Journey of Grief and Growth

• Episode 20

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Author Thomas Brown joins Travis White to share the story behind his 7,000-mile bike ride across the U.S. to raise suicide awareness after losing his brother. This powerful conversation covers grief, healing, masculinity, mental health, and how art and adventure became a path toward purpose.

In this episode of Overcome: A Mental Health Podcast, host Travis White speaks with Thomas Brown, author of 2012: A Bicycle Odyssey. Thomas recounts the deeply personal journey that began with the loss of his brother to suicide and eventually led to a cross-country cycling odyssey for suicide prevention, undertaken alongside friend Zachary Chips—who had also lost his brother. Together, they honored their siblings, explored healing through movement and storytelling, and sparked conversations across America about grief and mental health.

The episode explores:

  • The emotional toll of suicide loss
  • The importance of therapy and self-awareness
  • Signs someone may be in distress
  • The impact of patriarchy on men's mental health
  • How to support someone struggling with suicidal thoughts
  • Creating safe spaces in the workplace and community

Whether you're navigating grief, supporting a loved one, or seeking your own path to healing, this episode is a must-listen.

Together, we can break the silence and end the stigma surrounding mental health. 

📚 Get Thomas’s Book:
2012: A Bicycle Odyssey — Buy it here

🎙️ Listen to Thomas's Podcast:
Inner Monologue — Available via RisePhoenix.org

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Travis White (00:01)
Welcome to Overcome, a mental health podcast. I'm your host, Travis White, and we are a safe place for you to tell your mental health stories. I'm very excited for today's guest. I'm speaking with, we are speaking with Thomas Brown. He is the author of 2012, Bicycle Odyssey. How are you doing today, Thomas?

Thomas Brown - Author (00:20)
I'm doing well, Travis. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Travis White (00:25)
Yeah, same here. Thanks so much for coming on the show and let's just go ahead and get started and I'll just hand the microphone right over to you.

Thomas Brown - Author (00:32)
Yeah. Um, well, yeah, I'm the author of 2012, a bicycle Odyssey. is a seventh. It's a story about a 7,000 mile bicycle journey for suicide awareness and the healing power of art. We mean my, my traveling companion at the time we rode our bikes, uh, combined 7,000 miles, uh, starting at the Northern edge of the Golden gate bridge in Sausalito, California. And we traveled.

Excuse me. And we traveled. We didn't do a straight line. We did like a giant W through the country and ended up at the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors and Art Retreat Center in upstate New York. Took us about seven months to do. The reason why it took us so long is one, we didn't do a straight line. Two, we picked a few cities to rest and kind of enjoy.

We didn't get as much enjoyment out of those cities. The further along we got into the journey, it was much more lounging, know, in a back porch, sitting on a beach, just hanging out and enjoying it. Didn't get to go to a bunch of museums or anything like that and, you know, experience what a city has to offer. We both did it to honor our

Our brothers, my traveling companion, Zachary Chips. was riding for his brother, Sean Chips, and I was riding for my brother, Mark Brown. Mark died in 2000, in August of 2001. So the book is pretty much just about, how we came up with the idea for the bike ride, the journey itself, and then also importantly, the journey home and the processing of the experience. So.

I would say that like by the time we did the bike ride, I had already.

navigated my trauma, worked with a therapist, and I was ready to go and just listen to other people and be there to like, know, first, obviously share my story so that people know that I'm on the level, on the real deal, that I've had this similar experience and that I wasn't there to exploit them and to then like listen to their...

their journey of their, their trauma, who they lost and everything that they dealt with from their community, from their friends, from their work environment, from law enforcement and the tools that they might've picked up along the way. So that's, that's a, that's pretty much my journey. took, it took me seven, it took a 13 months to plan.

in train for the bike ride. It took seven months to do the bike ride, another month and a half before I returned home from the bike ride. And then it took about 11 years to write the book, which was its own mountain to climb on its own.

Travis White (03:16)
Nice.

Yeah, I'm sure it was. And what like, when that all happened with your brother, like, what did that grieving process look like? What?

Thomas Brown - Author (03:27)
Well, I I wish I, you know, I was 24 when it happened. I didn't have the greatest confidence in myself. I always knew what I wanted to do. I just didn't have the confidence or courage to set out to do it. I had a lot of codependency issues that I was dealing with, which got me in a lot of trouble.

I was, you know, had really weird relationships with friends and intimate partners. it was just, wasn't really, excuse me. my God. Hopefully that's the last one. You know, just struggled a lot with who I was as a person. So when I lost my brother, it was,

I was really more concerned about my parents at that time. I didn't have the tools in order to like really deal with the trauma in the way, which was weird because out of all of my peers, I was probably the most open and comfortable with expressing my emotions. Like I wasn't afraid to cry. If I was upset about something, was, I was, I was.

Okay to say like hey, I don't feel that I don't feel good like this doesn't feel good to me So I Just never do with all the things that I was dealing with even before my brother's death it wasn't as I Don't want to say socially accepted it wasn't a socially accepted or as or as You know Comfortable to say like I'm depressed. I need professional help

Instead, I used my friends as therapists and that exhausted them. You know, and wasn't really good for the whole boundaries issue. and seeing how my brother's death affected my parents, my mom was the one who found them. It emotionally broke my father. I don't think he's been the same ever since. And it's totally understandable that like I just wanted to be supportive for them.

And I didn't have the tools to take care of myself, let alone my elderly parents at the time. So it was a dumb move. And it took me a long time before I found myself into therapy. It took me a long time before I was like, hey, I suck at this and I need to figure out my issues. So I'm going go find a professional who's had training to help me with that.

Travis White (05:52)
Yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (05:55)
And I was grateful as soon as I did it. You know, my brother and I, one more thing. My brother and I had we were kind of estranged for about four years before his death. And it wasn't until the last four months of his life that that we that we started to like reconnect. The only person in my entire life that I was comfortable with boundaries.

Travis White (05:58)
It's funny how that works. go ahead.

Thomas Brown - Author (06:19)
that were my codependency didn't put me in a precarious situation was with my brother. And I didn't like the way he treated me. I liked the way he treated some people. And when he tried to treat me in that way, I was like, no, I'm not having this. So we didn't really talk a lot for four years.

Travis White (06:38)
Well, I'm glad that you were able to kind of reconcile that relationship like four months before. Um, because I'm sure in a way that was helpful. I mean, I can't really personally speak to it, but.

Thomas Brown - Author (06:43)
Yeah.

It was nice.

It was nice to have some of the the moments that we did have together in the end. But to be honest, like, I don't regret that I didn't talk to him as much as we did for those four years. I don't know. I can't tell you how it would have felt if we never had that conversation. I was never mad at him when he died either. was some people when they lose someone to suicide, there is a lot of like anger and resentment. I didn't really have that.

Travis White (07:03)
Too young.

Yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (07:21)
there's times now, like my mom passed away almost two years ago. I'm caretaking with my partner, for my father, her and I are doing that. And, you know, there's sometimes I'm just like, man, it'd be, it'd be, it'd be really helpful if there was another family member here to help me out. But it just, it wasn't, it wasn't meant to go that

Travis White (07:37)
Mm-hmm, help out.

Yeah. And so, like coming up to your brother's death, they say there's kind of two people. There's the type of person that you know that that's coming, and there's the type that you have no idea that they're even thinking of anything like suicide related. Which one do you, which one?

Thomas Brown - Author (07:59)
I think also like, so this

is 2001, know, the real, even though there's been like pushbacks with the Andrew Tates and Joe Rogan's of the world, I feel like, you know, men having a space to share their feelings is really, you know, it's become like a thing that's like more acceptable in a lot of circles in our society. And that's what like also like made it a little bit more comfortable for us.

Travis White (08:02)
Yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (08:29)
when we traveled like 2010, 2011 was when like that was becoming more of a thing that was like open for men to do. A lot of men were still struggling with it. I mean, the majority of the people that we interacted with on our bike ride were women. But.

Where was I going with that? What was your question? I'm sorry.

Travis White (08:54)
I said there's two so there's usually people say there's two types of people. Yeah, yeah

Thomas Brown - Author (08:57)
yeah, Yeah,

so like there was like back then with my brother, there just wasn't, you know, that was like the farthest thing from our, from our, you know, imagination. We never thought that it would, something like that would happen. There's a lot of things that make sense about who he was before and his idea of what masculinity is. He's a very toxic masculine person.

Travis White (09:09)
Yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (09:23)
the way that he felt, you know, this is what makes a man for him. It was womanizing and he was a womanizer and he had two women that were his primary girlfriends and he weaved, you know, these lies to together that from as an outside point of view, you're like, that's pretty impressive how you're able to use their own denial against them. You know,

It's also impressive that you don't feel bad about it, but in presses of just in the way that like how he he maneuvered and executed those things. But it wasn't it wasn't cool at all. That was like where him and I had like a lot of we had a lot of grief. Like if I wasn't going to lie for him, even if I just didn't want to be a part of it, you know what I mean? Like I'll just you know, I don't I don't know anything. He's like I was I was a

Travis White (09:50)
Hey.

Thomas Brown - Author (10:11)
unaccounted variable in his mind. near, you know, what started off his depression was that or his open outward depression was that both those women left and he had no power. All of his illusionary power that he thought that he had was like gone. And instead of telling people that, you know, I made a mistake, I shouldn't have done that. Like, I'm sad. I need help.

I need I need professional help to like figure out like why I treated people like that. Why I feel the need to try to manipulate things and control things. He told people that he was physically ill and that's why he was getting skinny. It's not because he was depressed because you know men don't get sad and it because he kept on he wouldn't talk about it he wouldn't find like true help that he needed and he continued you know his skillful ability to lie that that eventually

compounded and was the thing that killed him. often say like, you know, my brother killed himself. was the, you know, the way that he killed himself was the thing that killed him. But the thing that set it off to me was just the patriarchal matrix that is the foundation and backdrop of our society.

Travis White (11:25)
And I'm actually happy that we're getting to a point in our society where men can actually talk about it. I know in Utah they've started this thing around here called I Love You Bro. I've never joined it, but it's like an open group where men come and just speak about the things that are going on with their lives from what I understand. it's, yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (11:32)
Yeah.

That's, that's important. You

know, it's an it's important for for men to have have a space like that. You know, we're and that's the thing, like, you got the Jordan Petersons of the world, it would be like, well, if patriarchy is such a thing, then why is it that men are the ones that die in combat? Why is it that men are the ones that are the leading group of people that kill themselves?

Travis White (12:04)
you

Thomas Brown - Author (12:15)
because patriarchy creates that environment for men to be in those stressful situations. You ding dong, you gotta doctor it, bro. How is that so hard to like understand? And so, you know, it's just as important for men to recognize that foundational tapestry of patriarchy and resist it and to fight back against it and to really, you know, do some.

Travis White (12:19)
I'll you

Thomas Brown - Author (12:43)
self-evaluation of where the hooks of that are in them. know? It's in and it's not like a matriarchal society is something where men take a back seat. The idea of what we're good pushing forward is that like we both have like an equal say in how the environment is, how the society is shaped, you know? So.

Travis White (12:48)
Yeah.

Yeah. By the way, you do a good Jordan Peterson impression. I quite enjoyed it. I don't have any good impressions, What do you?

Thomas Brown - Author (13:15)
Thank you. Thank you.

I've been working on it.

Travis White (13:28)
Like what science do you think people should look out for for like in a loved one that may be struggling with these types of things?

Thomas Brown - Author (13:35)
Emotional shifts in their character. It could be outbursts, can be being withdrawn, stopping to do some of the activities that they do, even if it's activities they did by themselves. Outbursts could be anger, it could be crying. And for my brother, definitely.

he became really, really sad and it was obvious that he was sad and Mopi and, and, and, know, like sometimes like the sign just isn't there. Like they'll be like, maybe you're dealing with someone who's very stoic and they just drop one little line and say something. It could also be like things that like they're trying to

make the cleanup for their life a little bit easier. So maybe they'll give some things away to friends. They'll cancel, you know, any type of like subscriptions that they have or they give people information that usually wouldn't need the information on how to deal with certain things. If something happened to them like bank or, you know, car payments and stuff like that. So it's just, you know,

It's just it's the most important thing to do is that when you see somebody that is displaying any of this is for us as the their friend or their family member or their acquaintance is to like legitimately ask them, are you considering harming yourself? You know, like it's it's not an invasive question. And even if they're like, no, what are you talking about? Like it's still.

Travis White (15:10)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Brown - Author (15:17)
it's important to ask that question. And then trying to get, you know, any types of, if they do say yes, try to get as all the, anything that could be harmful, whether it's a firearm, knives, pills, get that stuff out of the house, rope, get that stuff out of the house. And you know, there's a national hotline that you could text,

Travis White (15:35)
Yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (15:39)
or call and if you're concerned, you can always call that number yourself and be like, hey, I've got this friend, I need some advice, I need some references, this is where I live and they, should at least like, they should give you at least some information to get you started. You don't have to wait for the very last second of like, my friend's in crisis, you know, at that point, you know, yeah, yeah.

Travis White (15:57)
Yeah.

The last second it was too late. Yeah.

And like even if these questions are invasive though, like I think be invasive. Ask the hard question.

Thomas Brown - Author (16:13)
Being invasive

is more important than like not being able to talk to that person ever again, because they're gone. know? I mean, that's the alternative.

Travis White (16:22)
Mm-hmm.

I,

I, during this past year, I had some medical problems where I started suffering from suicidal stuff. And it got to the point where one night I had to have my in-laws come like sleep, like trade off and sleep downstairs, main bedrooms are all upstairs, like just a two floor house. And at first I thought, well, that's a little invasive, but at the same time, like

Thomas Brown - Author (16:42)
Yeah.

Travis White (16:48)
I look back and I realize they were doing that for me to keep me safe.

Thomas Brown - Author (16:51)
Yeah, they're doing that for you. They're doing that for your family.

You know, they they because that's just a thing. Like when when a suicide happens, we often don't think about all the other people that it affects. And I'm not talking about like the person who is suffering from suicide ideation and is in kind of like crisis, because like when you're emotional like that, it's hard to really like think about other people.

Travis White (17:07)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Brown - Author (17:21)
And so I don't say that as a slight, I'm just saying as like people who are think, people who contemplate the concept of suicide and how it affects society, not people who are suicidal thinking about it, but just people are like, suicide, like it affects so many people. Like I would say that because it affected me and how I navigate the world, it's affecting the people that

Travis White (17:32)
Yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (17:46)
I interact with, you know, it's, it's having a direct effect on there on, on like coworkers and stuff, even coworkers that didn't know me at the time that I lost my brother is because I've had those, those, hopefully, hopefully I've done enough work on myself that the effects that I have on my coworkers are the people that I interact with on a day to day basis is more positive now than it was in the beginning.

you know that like because I've had that experience, I am open to asking somebody even like a co worker like hey, are you thinking about harming yourself? You know, when I ask you how are you doing because you look a little down in the dumps. I'm not asking about how you think about the weather. Like I'm not asking that to be polite. Like I'm legit like yo, I'm here talk to me. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we like I don't I don't

Travis White (18:33)
You're being sincere.

Thomas Brown - Author (18:38)
I don't give a shit if we have to be on the desk in five minutes. Talk to me. And if, and if you're in a, if you're really in a hurry, like let's make time later today to go for a walk and chat. I think that's important.

Travis White (18:53)
Yeah, well that to me that one life is important. Like it doesn't matter who you are.

Thomas Brown - Author (18:58)
Mm-hmm. Totally. It's a heavy situation, know? Millions of people attempt every single year. We lose close to 47,000, you know? Like, what, I think it's like up to like somewhere between 30 and 40 a day. 19 of them are service men and women, you know? It's wild, man. It's definitely, it's an issue.

Travis White (19:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's.

It is just.

Thomas Brown - Author (19:23)
And like as I kind of like allude to in my book about my own personal journey, but I'm working on some follow-up books that are more philosophical to me, like one of the aspects of suicide or of mental health that isn't really, I'm not gonna say it's the cause for negative mental health or the cause of why people end up taking their lives, but I think it's something that people don't

think about that researchers haven't really got into. And that's the important of both overall awareness and cultivating awareness and cultivating self-awareness, having an understanding of who you are, why you do things, the thing that you do, why you respond and react, why you respond emotionally to certain things or how you have outbursts or how you compartmentalize and how you process stuff.

And it's important to know all that. Do you need to have some medication to help you get through a certain rough patch in your time? Are you predisposed because you're just born different and you were wired different than other people. So you need a little bit more of assistance. is meditation what you need? Is learning strict boundaries and detoxifying

your environment, not from like just foods or or or what you're drinking, but from people. You know, people are always like, you know, like you got to alkalize your water and, know, should you should be eating raw greens. Are you hanging around with assholes? You know, like that's it's it's important to detoxify that and understanding who you are.

Travis White (21:03)
Yep.

Thomas Brown - Author (21:08)
also puts a lot of accountability on you too, because to me, you know, no matter what, I don't mean to sound like I'm harping on religion or anything like that, because that has its place. And it's a viable element of somebody's, you know, state of being and community in their lives. But to me, the only game in town is awareness. You know, if you don't know who you are, if you don't know why you are, if you don't know

Travis White (21:30)
Yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (21:34)
all the pieces that make up who you are outside of every single human institutional conditioning and influence, like then you have an entire world of people telling you who you are and who you should be. You know, and if that goes against your foundational nature, even if you haven't given yourself time to understand what that foundational nature is, it still exists on a subconscious level. And if like all the influences in your life,

are forcing you and dictating you to go against that, well, that's a problem. And that's going to lead to mental health issues and could even lead to death.

Travis White (22:15)
Yeah, and that's very well said. I think that's like one of the most well said things that I've heard in a while. Because sometimes I feel like we as people don't spend enough time on ourselves to figure out who we really are and be that aware.

Thomas Brown - Author (22:34)
Well, I mean, it's a lifelong journey. You know, it's cradle to grave and there is no finish line. There is no summit. Every single time you're climbing that mountain and you think you see the summit, you get to the top and there's a massive, you know, like mountain that you got to scale, another wall you got to scale. So it just keeps on going and going and going and going up. And that's just, you know, when I talk about awareness, I'm like, who are you outside of the state?

Travis White (22:36)
Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

Start going back.

Thomas Brown - Author (23:03)
Who are you outside of family lineage? Who are you outside of the faith you were raised? Who are you outside of the political affiliation you were born into? Who are you outside of like your, the color of your pigmentation? Who are you outside of your sexual orientation? Who are you outside of your gender? Who are you outside of your able bodiness? Who are you? Who is the one that is observing the question of who are you that is being asked?

Like it's important to like get deep into those questions. Like we are sitting on a organic rock that is living because it's the right amount of distance from a self-contained perpetual, like self-sustaining atomic explosion, hurtling through the darkness. You know, like.

Travis White (23:54)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Brown - Author (23:54)
And

somewhere along our historical path, our historical story, somebody BSed all of us into like, your right, your reason here is to make sure that I am successful and you got to pay all these taxes and you got to pay all these bills. you know, like all of the problems that our world has is self-conflicted. You know, and that's because we have an entire world of people

Travis White (24:20)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Brown - Author (24:23)
that don't know who they are and they're being ruled by ideology that was created by somebody else thousands of years ago. sometimes it modifies itself along with the technology that we have. And I just think, you know, a true journey of self discovery, like not only opens one up to like self empathy, self...

Travis White (24:31)
You

Thomas Brown - Author (24:49)
self love, but like the more that you start to feel that for yourself, you can't help but have it for other people, no matter what they are, no matter how they walk through this world, no matter who they love, no matter what they look like, what they call God. You know, like I think all of that stuff is super, super important for us to look at. I'm a heathen, you know?

Travis White (25:08)
Yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (25:15)
I walked across the country a few years before the bike ride with a group of progressive Christians. And the reason why I walked with them is because I could still, as somebody who was an outsider, understand what they were trying to do and agree with a lot with what they were doing. I can read different religious texts and see what's the moral of the story that they're trying to tell. Stories are important. Human beings are storing and making machines.

Travis White (25:36)
story.

Thomas Brown - Author (25:41)
because we're asking the same questions like, who am I? What am I doing here? What is the point of all the chaos that exists around us?

Travis White (25:54)
Yeah, you made me think of something. You mentioned like, we're trying to figure out who we are while we're being told what to do, pretty much. I always tell my wife, I was like, you know, knowing what I do, knowing what I know now, I feel like we are raised to work for the man and I'm just to the point where, damn it, I don't want to work for the man anymore.

Thomas Brown - Author (26:00)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah,

you know, and that's just like.

The one thing about all isms.

you know, whatever that ism is, it doesn't really account for the variable of the worst compulsions of humaneness.

You know, and the thing about that is that like most of the worst compulsions of humanists is just to learn trait. And it's learned because they were treated a certain way, they felt that they needed to protect themselves because of that, and then they do this without actually like going deeper into who they are and why they allowed, you know, were they old enough to allow somebody to treat them like that?

Travis White (26:38)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Brown - Author (27:02)
Did they have no power because whatever happened to them happened to them when they were a child and they just like, you know, got hard rather than, you know, understand what that trauma was. Did they allow themselves to work through it and to understand it and why it affected them the way that they did, or they just become like, you know, I need, I need, I need revenge. I need to protect myself. I need to build a wall around me. Bridges are for cowards.

Travis White (27:29)
Yeah. So thinking back to like, time that you've done therapy, was there like any type of like, what's the word I'm looking for? therapy, like, it's like I've just hit a brick wall.

Thomas Brown - Author (27:40)
No, it's okay. Like, what were some of the things that I learned in therapy?

Travis White (27:42)
Yeah,

what were some of the techniques that you learned that actually really helped you out to agree with philosophy and stuff?

Thomas Brown - Author (27:51)
I mean, just what my therapist did is that she took me on a journey of self. I went there because I was realizing that, you know, I was finally starting to get courage to seek out the things that I was curious about in life and find a craft and, and, you know, work towards it. But I sucked at my intimate relationships. I was still ruled by that codependency of wanting someone to love me and

Travis White (28:16)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Brown - Author (28:19)
because of that being in horrible relationships with people that treated me like trash and brought out the worst impulses in me. So I went to a therapist and she kind of like, talked to me for like, a couple times a week, for like at least a month. And she just learned me, you know what mean? She's like, tell me about your parent, tell me about your mom, tell me about your dad, tell me about your brother. your brother killed himself.

Travis White (28:38)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Brown - Author (28:43)
What was your relationship like? What was he the oldest? Were you know, was he the youngest? Like, where were you in age? Like, what kind of relationships did you have when you were growing up intimate ones with partners or ones with your your friends and all of that? And then finally, like, and I went there because like, just I, why am I, why am I stuck with this woman that I why can't I let her go? And like, we just went through like, like, she was like, Okay, I'm gonna help you figure yourself out. So it was really like,

her learning me kind of like getting an understanding of some of my behavioral patterns and then just like showing me how to like figure myself out. And the way that I really started was just with like breathing, you know, controlled breathing. It can kind of like chill you out a little bit if you do it long enough. It's not a fix all. But what what breathing meditations have really done for me is like put me in tune with my body.

And as I'm getting older, that's more and more important because like, you know, I still can have emotional outbursts and all that and like breathing into it, you know, can kind of, if I'm being honest, myself will like open me up to like why I did that. But more so as I'm aging, it's getting into the aches and pains. How am I sitting at my desk? Like how am I moving my body through the day? And breathing just really puts you in touch with you. Like your brains,

job is to compute. So people first think of meditation as like, I'm gonna find I'm reaching I'm trying to get to like nirvana to just like, just shut my brain down and not be thinking about anything. But that's not really, I don't know how possible that is. Like, if you don't live on a mountaintop somewhere. And even then you're going to be thinking about wind rain, where how you're going to prepare your meal.

Travis White (30:28)
Yeah, right. Something.

Thomas Brown - Author (30:35)
So like really like the breath was just like, I'm not gonna try to like silence my mind because my brain's job is to compute. But get in touch with my body and my body always tells the truth. Your brain, your ego can always BS you.

Travis White (30:43)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas Brown - Author (30:57)
your body will always tell you the truth. Your body will tell you if you're excited, your body will tell you if you're anxious, your body will tell you if you're frightened, your body will tell you if you're exuberant, your body will tell you like, hey, I don't trust this person in front of me. You know, like your body, like speaks to you. And like that, that's like the first thing. Once you could start, you know, you give yourself some time with like breathing meditations. And I do more of it like,

Travis White (31:13)
Yes.

Thomas Brown - Author (31:26)
Like I'll do like a couple of times in my office. just like kind of like turn off the lights and just like go inward for about 10 minutes and just sit there and breathe. I also do it a lot like right when I get in bed at night. But the more and more you do that, you start to pick up your body's tells. And you know, it's not like you're going to like, at least for me, I don't recognize those tells all the time when they're happening.

But the more and more that I do like breathing exercises and I start to like get in touch with my body, like where, where am I holding tension? You know, why is this part of me like ache? What's going on? Like when I'm in situations and I'm open, cause that's what the practice is. It's just like breathe doing it constant. Like you're like when you would go to practice for like any type of like athletic sport or, know, uh,

instrument playing instruments or anything like that, or, any type of like thing that you skill set that you have, you like constantly practice at it. You just start to like, my body, my body's the thing that tells me what's going on. My body's communicating to me how I'm feeling. And like, once I like own that, like, I'm like, okay, why, why is that happening? What am I thinking about? Do I got something going on? That's like,

that's tripping me out that I got to do later today or tomorrow. You know, did I say something to somebody and I kind of feel bad about it, feel a little guilty about it, you know, or is this person in front of me driving me up the wall? So that was kind of like the foundation of all the stuff that I've learned. And what's cool about like your own practice of awareness is that I can't write you a 10 point thing of what to do.

I can tell you some things that I've done. You can try them out, but really you're right in your own book. You're right in your own playbook.

Travis White (33:12)
Yeah, you have

to figure out what works for you. But you remind me of something my therapist said. He told me that you have to learn to recognize like what your body is telling you. Like, sometimes it takes a bit of practice and he's like, and sometimes you might have to stop in the middle of the room and stop completely stop what you're doing just so you can recognize what your body is trying to tell you.

Thomas Brown - Author (33:23)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Travis White (33:37)
And like,

and this will help you get over that anxiety. This will help you curve that depression that you're feeling at the time or whatever it is that you're going through. it's sometimes like my wife has called me out, like saying like, okay, not really called me out, but she'll look at me funny. Cause I'll learn like moments of frustration, whatever. I'll just kind of sit there like look off to the side. She's like, you're doing something weird. Like, no, like I'm.

trying to learn how to recognize the thoughts that are going through my head or this weird thing that I'm feeling so I can know how to deescalate the situation.

Thomas Brown - Author (34:04)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. And it takes practice, man. And as you as we get older and we have new experiences and new relationships with people, you know, depending on where we work, people coming in out of our lives or, you know, the the people that come in and out of your lives just like through your children. Like you're going to have different experiences and you're going it's going to allow you to kind of like evolve or or.

readjust some of your tactics a little bit. Because we're constantly changing. We're experiencing new things. And so it's just important to stay on top of that.

Travis White (34:48)
Yeah, and I want to go back to your book a little bit here. You said that you traveled with a guy that had lost his brother to suicide as well. I'm just curious how you guys like met. Like what are the odds of that happening? It's just.

Thomas Brown - Author (34:56)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Well, that's where it gets a little

weird. That's where like I I I love to converse about the mystery of the universe. I'm a big fan of synchronicity. I don't know if it's real or if it's just, you know, my brain trying to put connections there that aren't really there. But Zach and I, both worked for parks and recreation for the same municipality. And I was working at the

park that my brother had worked at before he died. Zach was just filling in one day, him and I had like known of each other in the city because it was like a small community. And then we kind of like that was the first time we worked together and we really enjoyed each other's company talking about like books and, and music and all that stuff. And he had like really cool tattoos, really good like art.

like tattoos, like the artist, the tattoo artist who did it was like amazing. And so we decided like we wanted to hang out. And the first night that we met up, we met up at a coffee shop and we were reading like the same book, which was which the Ishmael trilogy he was on. We weren't going to the same book. We were reading the same trilogy. And I was reading the second book and he was finishing the third book.

in the series and it's the Ishmael series from Daniel Quinn, which he's all about like understanding narratives and stories, not just personal ones, but nationalistic ones or, or cultural ones or species stories. He gets that it's a phenomenal book. highly recommend it. Ishmael, the story of Bea and my Ishmael is the trilogy. And so that we were like, that's weird.

And so we just started talking. He's like, so what have you been up to lately? And I told him about therapy. He's like, what got you into that? So I told him about my brother and all that. And like a few hours later, he tells me he lost his brother to suicide. And then like a couple of days later, I find out that Zach has the same birthday as my brother. They're both September 7th babies. And I was just like, man, this is weird. Like we're reading the same book. We met at the park that my brother like was working at when he died.

You have the same birthday as as my brother and we both lost our older siblings to suicide Like what is like we're there and I was like there's there's we're meant to do something You know, we're not just meant to like Drink beer play basketball and chase babes. You know what mean? Like that's not what we're that's not what we're meant for we're meant to like we were brought together to to accomplish something

Travis White (37:18)
Yep, that's.

Yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (37:38)
And we did. That was like in early 2010. We had a conversation about doing the bike ride in June. So this is like January 2010 is when we first started hanging out. June 2010 is when we have the first time we have the idea for the bike ride. And then mid February 2011, we make the decision that we're going to do it.

and we start our bike ride on March 1st, 2012. So was like fast.

Travis White (38:12)
Yeah, I would say I totally believe that the universe brings people together because the odds of that happening, it's just bizarre to me.

Thomas Brown - Author (38:19)
Totally. But that's also

another thing that's important about awareness, is that pay attention to those carrots. And those carrots come a lot, and you can just ignore them. Or you can be like, I want to know where that carrot's leading. I'm going to follow that a little bit. Be playful with the world around you. Be aware. Pay attention. Don't just like, you know.

Travis White (38:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Thomas Brown - Author (38:49)
think twice about it and laugh it off.

Travis White (38:53)
Yeah, it's just, I just can't get over like the odds of that happening. Just all, it's crazy to me.

Thomas Brown - Author (38:58)
Yeah.

And Zach was like the first person that I had met that had been, that I had known. I didn't know if I knew anybody else that had lost anybody else to suicide. And the fact that like, and this is like, this is like nine years later, you know, I lost my brother in August, 2001. Zach and I started hanging out in January of 2010. And he was the first person I had met that lost somebody to suicide.

especially like an older sibling. So it was, it was a very profound connection.

Travis White (39:30)
you

And how do you think we can open up conversations about mental health and suicide prevention?

Thomas Brown - Author (39:44)
I think you just need to be honest with your state. You don't come out and just be like, I'm depressed. You know what I mean? But you find ways to bring the conversation up. Let people know that you're a safe space to talk about that stuff. And that's always one thing that I always, even at work, I ask people how they're doing.

Travis White (39:49)
Yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (40:04)
And people know that I wrote this book. I work at a library too. So, you know, people know that about me and I'm, I'm, I mean, I have, I, I am a supervisor and I have like seven people that work under me when I'm in my office. I usually have one lamp under like the, the little, shelf drawer that light is on. And then I have like one of those atmospheric, like ceiling lights on with like auroras. And then I'm playing weird music.

and I have a poop emoji pillow in one of the chairs of my office. And I tell everyone who hire, you know, when you come in here, like consider this like the wellness room. We got weird music. We got weird lights. Like if you've got, if you got anything going on with you, whether it's about work or your personal life, if you grab that poop emoji pillow and hold it to your chest, that's you telling me without saying anything.

that you have shit that you need to get off your chest. And so people like know that that's like, that's the safe space room to talk about those things. People can come in and they can cry if they have to cry. They can complain about things that they need to complain. They could vent about things that's going on in their personal lives. And you know, that's for us.

Travis White (41:21)
And that's cool that you've created a space like that at work because not everywhere has that. I can say that where I work is not anywhere close to that.

Thomas Brown - Author (41:26)
no, no and

When I became a supervisor, my primary, like the foundation of my supervisory, like how I worked and navigated as a supervisor was all based on all the crappy supervisors that I had. Like what not to do. You can still learn from people, whether you're learning something that is an important skill.

or you're learning how not to do something, how not to treat people. And I've learned just as much from people that were horrible at their job as I have from people who are really good at their job. You know what I mean?

Travis White (42:10)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, know exactly what you mean. You gotta learn those lessons from the crapping managers, right?

Thomas Brown - Author (42:14)
I'm

Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, I'm never gonna do that to another human being. Noted.

Travis White (42:22)
Yeah,

I think I could probably write a book at this point in my life about like what to do as a people manager.

Thomas Brown - Author (42:33)
Yeah, yeah, totally. mean, we still need to get our work done. Like I still like it can't be a free for all. But like I want people to be happy and feel safe when they come to work. They're much more productive that way.

Travis White (42:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

that's very true.

Thomas Brown - Author (42:50)
Joy is more

powerful than fear.

Travis White (42:53)
Yeah, it's very true. It's like, very true. And it's a manager that you can trust to actually be open with and build that relationship with. You're going to work a lot better for them.

Thomas Brown - Author (42:57)
They last longer too.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I always tell people like, yeah, I know that this is like the entry level position here at this institution. And I'm just going to tell you to shoot you straight. I'm going to ruin you for future employment. Like you're not going to want to work for anybody else because most people suck. Sorry. Like I I'm going to encourage you to like upward momentum and movement. I'm going to.

create space and time once I know your position. Once I know that you know your job, I will create space and time and work with other supervisors so that you can do cross training. So if you want to leave, that's on your own. Yeah. So.

Travis White (43:45)
But you'll always want to come back and work with me. That's a

good thing to do though.

Thomas Brown - Author (43:53)
Yeah. So.

Travis White (43:55)
So what message do you want to give listeners that may be struggling with mental health or maybe know someone who is?

Thomas Brown - Author (44:05)
Well, know, find your first of first reform of the like the very generic thing is just like it is important for you to go on a journey of self discovery. Know thyself. This is not some journey that you're going to get to in a day, a week, a month, a year, a decade. Like this is a lifelong journey because whether even if you're really good at alienating people, there's always one person that you're stuck with from cradle to grave. And that's yourself.

So you better get to know that person. You better get to learn that person. You better get to understand that person. Better get to like learn empathy and compassion for that person. That's the long-term thing. The short-term thing, find a community, find somebody, any way that you can get some type of like therapy help. don't be afraid to ask for support. If you're away from your community, call that nine eight eight number.

and get some resources and just know that if you're in a dark forest of your mind, just keep moving forward and you will get out. You will make your way through the treeline and you will see sunshine again. you hurt yourself and you do self-harm with the intention of leaving this world, you don't have the chance for an opportunity the next day.

So I always say just like hold out till tomorrow and see what tomorrow will bring. And if tomorrow's shitty, hold out for the next day. You will if you keep moving forward and you're attempting to understand yourself and you're attempting to learn how to treat yourself positively, you will eventually get out of the dark forest.

and it will be worth it when you do.

Travis White (45:49)
Yeah, and I can attest to that, it is worth it when you do. I've been through some pretty dark paths and climbing my way out sometimes has been rough, but it's always brighter on the other side.

Thomas Brown - Author (45:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

I can't speak for an afterlife. I wouldn't do that, you know. So stick around. See what's to come, all right?

Travis White (46:14)
Is there anything that we have not touched bases on that you'd like to bring up?

Thomas Brown - Author (46:19)
If you're interested in reading my book and learning about my wild and wacky adventure across the country, like, look, here's the thing. If you've lost someone to suicide, there's a thread in there for you. If you're into like, like beatnik, weird, wild adventure, cross-country adventures, there's a thread in there for you. If you're into like weird mystery of life and mythology, there's a thread in there for you.

If you're a movie and music nerd, there's a thread in there for you. And if you like all those threads, well then it might just be something that you would enjoy. You can go to risephoenix.org. That's my website. And look for the book link and purchase one, sorry, 2012, Bicycle Odyssey. It looks like this.

So, and if you purchase one and you're done with it, please leave a review on Goodreads or Amazon and pass it on to a friend.

Travis White (47:29)
Is there anywhere else you'd want people to find you? Like any social media accounts or anything?

Thomas Brown - Author (47:34)
You can find all that stuff from ricephoenix.org. We got I got a podcast called Inner Monologue that I do it's like weekly or every other week. It used to be an interview show. Now it's just me talking about my life processing the world the things that I'm seeing what it's like to be a caregiver and like some projects that I'm working on. So each week, I don't even know what I'm to talk about until I get on the microphone.

Travis White (48:00)
You're you're

you do way better than I do cuz I tried that kind of solo podcasting once before I started overcome and I lasted like seven episodes and I'd get there and I was like I don't even know what to speak about anymore

Thomas Brown - Author (48:16)
Well,

I mean, that's the thing. Like sometimes it's every week. Sometimes it's every other week. Sometimes I'm blathering for 30 minutes. Sometimes I'm talking for 15. I don't, I don't judge it. Yeah. And I try to leave it open. you know, I share a little bit about my life and then I editorialize things that are happening in the world. And sometimes I'll do a movie review. Like I just saw a sci-fi horror film last night called Ash.

Travis White (48:24)
Yeah, so just depends on, yeah.

Thomas Brown - Author (48:42)
and I described it as the coolest student film ever made. It's not a student film, but that's how it feels. Yeah. So, yeah, like it's just like whatever, you know, and sometimes I read a lot, so I'll recommend like a book or I'll talk about a book and some of the things that I've learned from it. You know, and I.

Travis White (48:46)
Nice. The fill you got for me.

Thomas Brown - Author (49:05)
Like I said, I'm working on a follow-up to 2012, which is more of like my personal philosophy about awareness and how it applies to mental health. So hopefully that will be coming soon and I'll be talking about that a lot on the podcast.

Travis White (49:16)
Awesome.

Well Thomas, thank you so much for coming on and speaking with me and having an open conversation.

Thomas Brown - Author (49:27)
I appreciate

it Travis, this was fun. Thank you for the opportunity. I'm grateful.

Travis White (49:32)
And thanks to all listeners out there. Thanks for listening to Overcome, a mental health podcast. You can find us on Instagram and YouTube at Overcome pod. The best thing you can do for us right now is to go follow us, share our stuff, like our stuff, do all that fun stuff. And I said stuff way too many times right there, but there's always stuff to do. Thanks for listening everyone until next time.

Thomas Brown - Author (49:50)
fine. There's always stuff to do.