Overcome - A Mental Health Podcast

Breaking the Stigma: Embracing Neurodiversity Through Storytelling with Thomas Wilson

• Travis White | Mental Health Advocate • Episode 22

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In this episode of Overcome, host Travis White speaks with R. Wilson, a mental health advocate and owner of R & H Creative Advocacy and Storytelling. They discuss Wilson's personal journey through mental health challenges, the importance of understanding neurodiversity, and the need for inclusivity in society. Wilson shares his coping mechanisms, the stigmas surrounding mental health, and the power of storytelling in advocacy. The conversation highlights impactful stories from the community and offers advice for those struggling with mental health issues, emphasizing the importance of perseverance and self-acceptance.

Learn more about Thomas:

Website: https://www.rhcreativeadvocacyandstorytelling.net/

Linktree: https://linktr.ee/ndttrpg

LinkedIn: Thomas Wilson

Email: ndttrpg@gmail.com

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Travis White (00:01)
Hello and welcome to Overcome, a mental health podcast. I'm your host, Travis White, and this is a place where you can tell your stories freely and just a safe place overall. And I would like to welcome to the show today, Thomas R. Wilson. He's the owner of R &H Creative Advocacy and Storytelling LLC. Thomas, how are you doing today?

Thomas R Wilson (00:25)
I am doing great today. It's been a long busy day, but it's been a good day.

Travis White (00:32)
Well, at least it's been a good day because sometimes those long busy days can be the rough days.

Thomas R Wilson (00:39)
Absolutely.

Travis White (00:41)
And why don't we just get started by you sharing a little bit about your journey and with mental health and go from there.

Thomas R Wilson (00:51)
absolutely. I, you know, I used to think that I had this, grand kind of cinematic, kind of story about my life. when I, I've always loved stories. I've always loved the idea of stories and movies have always been a big part of that. But when I was younger, a lot of my connection to my identity was stories, but it was also

A lot of what I often felt the most connected to was being alienated or being judged or mocked. And I always liked the preface. You know, I was, I was one of those, and there's lots of us out there, you know, kiddos who was told they were genius at a young age. My teachers praised me for being a hard worker, passing tests, all kinds of things by the time I was eight years old.

And then unfortunately, my mental health needs started kicking in. had a really significant loss around that time. Like I did not have things easy up until that point whatsoever. Um, but I lost someone very important to me and that's when my diagnosis started kicking in. I always try to, you know, filter my story some so I don't trigger the audience. Um, cause I've definitely been through.

some dark stuff as a lot of us have, but I always like my story to be one of hope. And so when I lost that individual, it really rocketed a few things. One of them was a lot of anxiety, another one was anger. But we didn't know for the longest time that I was also a head neurodiversity, especially growing up in the 90s, early 2000s. That wasn't a term a lot of people used. And...

For those listening who don't know what it was like to grow up in the 90s or early 2000s, it was a pretty brutal kind of era of American opinion of health. A lot of it was intense judgment towards the mental health community. Teachers were not anywhere near supported the way they are now, which is wild to think about or educated on mental health as much.

And a lot of people like myself spent a lot of time shifting from that idea of that prodigy to someone too hard to work with or the problem student or some teachers called me an outright monster. And I'm not here to say that I was a saint. I was by no means the easiest person to work with. I definitely had my own opinion of myself. But one of the things I learned at a young age

was a lot of people weren't really telling me how to communicate what I was actually trying to say. A lot of people were just yelling at things or judging or not really looking into why I was doing what I was doing. So I spent a lot of my time in school going from someone who loved it to someone who absolutely hated it. In and out of programs that were designed to help me for my own mental health, deeming me

far too hard to work with because the systems just didn't work, which again, I probably didn't make it super easy on them. And then I remember by the time I was in fifth grade, I had a teacher who hated me so much, like outright hated me that when I would get upset, she would like...

barreled down at my desk and scream at me in my face because I was in her mind too hard to work with. And so that was my experience for a lot of school that followed me into middle school, followed me into a good chunk of high school. And my interpretation of school was just that it was not designed for a lot of people. And I still hold onto that. And I think we really need to change a lot of things about how we educate people.

And I could go into a lot of things on that, but I'm going to avoid it for the sake of not making people too upset. in that as well, I wasn't in really until I was in my, I think it was sophomore year of high school, I really started to thrive in a program. My first year was a lot of like difficult, complex,

struggles. I didn't really want to speak up. I didn't want to talk. And I remember, and this was a huge changing point in my life, I remember one of the teachers after I had just raged, I had gone over and apologized and he told me, you know what, you're doing better. I looked at him confused and he said, well, compared to when you first got here and you weren't talking to people, you weren't socializing, you were very

quiet, you would hide from people, that kind of stuff. He said, I would take you being angry and expressing yourself over being so quiet that you don't talk to anyone. And that was a huge shift in my mindset of my own mental health journey, but also through my mindset of mental health care. To speed things up, I...

I then graduated valedictorian of that program, ended up going to college, something many people for years told me I never would. I then got my degree. I ended up in healthcare. Again, people was telling me for years I was gonna end up in jail by that point. When I was in my early 20s, that's never happened. On top of that, I eventually ended up in the reading.

I helped kiddos like myself who struggled with learning and got to help some kiddos really love to learn. I also published by that point several books on my own experience. Ended up in healthcare where I've been for about 12 years now working with a neurodiverse community and other communities as well. Taking every ounce of that, but I also opened my business in 2021.

at a point where I'm sure so many of us know if mental health and neurodiversity is a journey and you have to put in the effort every single day or else it just it's not going to pan out. And so there was a long period of time where I got really sad, really depressed again. And I tried to decide what I could do to change my life up some. And I decided I was going to be a storyteller and I was going to open my own business.

I like to say that this was the point that actually got me off the couch for about, for the first time in like three days, I was so excited and like a month and a half later I had my name, I had registered my business and since then it's been this beautifully complex, often very hard, but very rewarding.

pathway as to a business owner who does a lot of different events like Dungeons and Dragons and storytelling public speaking community advocacy mentorship all kinds of different things Getting to kind of live out my full potential as someone when I look back I often think about those early school days as Someone who was told I was gonna do great things, but that one situation changed so much And I've also become a really

massive advocate that we can't give up on people. We gotta help people thrive the way that they need to thrive. We gotta help them explore their pain. We gotta help people communicate and help those providing care actually listen. And I could go on and on. Obviously, there's a lot to my story that I did not mention, but I don't.

I don't know about anyone else if I were listening to a podcast right now and I had talked for as long as I did, there's probably some ooh shiny going on for some listeners. And that's my own term of endearment for myself. But yeah, it's a very quick summer.

Travis White (08:28)
Well, that's great. Like I admire you for going out there and helping people and using your story to what you had to overcome. I love stories like this. This is why I do what I'm doing. But I just want to state on something you said, it's sad that, you like you were talking about the education system back in like the 90s and it almost sounds like it was just, and I grew up in the 90s myself, but

In those aspects, it was set up for kids to fail in some aspect or another. But I'm happy that you were able to find the right program for yourself. This is great because it's all about, I think, the right program and the right mentor to help you get through those types of things. But I do have a question for you. I want to go back to...

neurodiversity and I want to get a better understanding of what neurodiversity means to you and how do you see the world embracing it.

Thomas R Wilson (09:36)
So I love that question. I so often get asked what neurodiversity is. And I always try to warn people I'm not a diagnostician, so I don't have the qualification to tell people those things. But I love that question of what neurodiversity is to me.

Travis White (09:45)
Mm-hmm.

Thomas R Wilson (09:53)
I don't think I've ever been asked that in a podcast interview before. So thank you for asking that. Um, so I will be honest, I will be blunt. Neurodiversity, um, is very much in my opinion, a way we process information. Um, and I will get progressively more hopeful as I go with this, cause I have some very fond associations with neurodiversity. I do think it's frustration. I do think it's hard times.

Travis White (09:59)
Yeah.

Thomas R Wilson (10:20)
I do think it's lot of judgment and fear and worry and pain and just bad days. But I promise you I'm about to get a lot happier here. I also think it's a beautifully complex, profoundly amazing series of superpowers and experiences and knowledge and...

Passions and just so much that is gonna change the world. I think big part of the reason neurodiversity Is becoming so prominent like prominent in so much like it's permeating Everything that term popped up not that long ago. It is infused into the workplace. It is abused in the schools movies TV shows all art and I love that

because despite all those negatives, I think first and foremost, I would say probably a lot of people have neurodiversity without realizing it. I have had many conversations with people about like how large the numbers have gotten on the population just in the United States when it comes to people being diagnosed with autism. I think if we as a society had

normalized getting diagnosis a long time ago without, you know, some of the darker aspects of it. I think I would say, my gosh, people knowing they would have autism would be a lot more prevalent. And I know there's people who, who say, you know, but it didn't exist when I was younger or, you know, it wasn't a thing or, you know, people with autism shouldn't be heard.

And I understand where people come from that. Like America's sense of mental health care is so new. like to say we're in the stone age of it. We're learning how to utilize the tools. We're learning about these things. We're learning how to do better and make a productive society out of it. That being said, I do think that is very much like kind of a dark age mentality just because people weren't heard.

or it wasn't talked about or it wasn't seen in the schools. And I believe me, I've heard some very valid arguments about the darkness of those realities. I'm not going to get into them for the sake of your audience. Often how I say it is just because someone wasn't heard or you didn't hear about it doesn't mean it didn't exist. And I think the great thing about now is there is a

beautiful love and compassion that is associated with neurodiversity. Some of the most pure, kind-hearted, beautiful people I've ever met have some of the most significant autism. And that does not mean they behave in the way other people do, or it doesn't mean that they have the ability to talk the way that you and I do. It just means there is a defiant

radiant soul in that human being and it is just waiting for the world to see

Travis White (13:28)
Yeah, that's very well put. I love it. And one thing that you spoke about in the very beginning was you felt, in a sense, like excluded as like an individual. What do you think society could do to be more inclusive towards people that are neurodivergent?

Thomas R Wilson (13:50)
So the big first one is listening to listen. I've been through this, I know a lot of people that go through this. So often people with neurodiversity are told to be quiet or to fit within a very particular box.

And I think we need to do better at listening to people's experiences and really taking those in. And I'm not saying this as someone who is perfect with this every time. I literally just swole the lawn. I was hot. I was frustrated. I had stressors running through my mind. Somebody said something. I got frustrated, like right off the bat. And I probably should have listened better.

But I think that's where accountability comes in, in the idea of listening. Like, and when I say listen, I mean listening to listen, not to respond, not to talk, not to control the conversation, but to actually listen. And then I think we as people need to be better about being accountable. I say this and I say this with no judgment towards anyone listening or anyone in the world.

But human beings in today's day and age have a real self-pity problem. And I am saying that as someone who has a real self-pity problem from time to time. And the reason I say that is we are so programmed in today's day and age to just blame someone else or get mad or hold our frustration so inward and justify them that we don't do things. We don't seek accountability.

We don't try to make up to the people who probably have autism that we don't know they have autism and they're upset with us. We don't apologize and try to reshape our behavior. A lot of times there are many people who do and I'll be clear, no one is perfect at this. No one should even try to be perfect. We can try hard. But I think there's a lot of people who, whether it's at a grocery store or at a school,

or on the road or something can see what is some very abrasive, let's be honest, neurodiverse tendencies, which is to be gruff, to be very direct and truthful to the point of being extremely blunt, and also to really not pay attention well sometimes. Those watching, if you can see my eyes, you're probably noticing I'm looking at 17 different things in my room and that's how I focus.

And I think if we can apply that empathy of accountability and start to go back and try to hold our patience, try to apologize, try to listen better and kind of honor the fact that we don't need to have so much self-pity, especially if we're having a bad day in a grocery store. I think we can apply that and be a lot kinder to those of us. I do want to preface with the idea.

I think people really do think autism is so new and I think it's a very, it's an idea and a reflection of our society. And I think it's okay from time to time to be upset and to honor that. But how we treat people is a very different scenario than what I've just mentioned.

Travis White (16:59)
Yeah, I agree. think there's so much that we're still learning about like autism in general. But I totally agree too with you saying that it's okay to be upset. I read a of kids books because I have young kids, but that you reminded me of a book that I actually really, really love and it's called The Grumpy Monkey. It's about this...

Thomas R Wilson (17:07)
Mm-hmm.

Travis White (17:22)
this monkey goes around, he's really grumpy, he has all these friends that trying to get him to be better that day and like do things with him. And he's like, no, I'm grumpy. Like I'm not grumpy. I'm just, you know, so goes through the book, all these friends, the very end, he sits down with his friend who's a gorilla and he notices that something's wrong with the gorilla. And then they, at the very end, it's like, well,

You know what? It's okay to have a grumpy date. It's okay to be off. And I just love that let's teach the kids that we can have off dates.

Thomas R Wilson (17:58)
Well, and to go alongside that, I think we need to normalize adults just reading children's books. Children's books are, I know they're called children's books and we have such like adults are not supposed to read children's books mentality. There is so much beauty in a good children's book. And I really do wish people could go to the library.

get like a stack of children's book and then just have comfort reading that teaches empathy.

Travis White (18:34)
There's a lot to be learned from them. I'm trying to teach my kids to be big readers. We buy them books all the time. So I'm constantly reading to them. But in some of these newer ones, I've never read before. There's a lot of good children's books with really good moral of the story type things that teach really good awesome.

Thomas R Wilson (18:57)
Mm-hmm.

Travis White (18:59)
good quality things for my kids. So anyways, I threw us off topic. apologize. Just where my brain was at the moment. Earlier on, you mentioned dealing with like anxiety and some dark times. What tools have you used or do you use to kind of help you out in those situations?

Thomas R Wilson (19:18)
So I definitely think my tools have changed over time. And there's an old saying that I heard. It's a very simple saying where it just says, essentially, everything works until it doesn't. I can't remember where I heard that because it's a surprisingly profound little quip of words.

And so I think, I think for a lot of, when I was younger, the hardest part was learning how to apply those, those coping skills. And so a lot of people told me to try deep breathing. a lot of people told me, you know, go on a walk or, a lot of people told me count to three. And so a lot of my experience was me trying to do coping skills and then

So when I was a kid, when I would get like deeply anxious and have a panic attack, one of my built-in responses was to run, which is incredibly human. Like we have fight or flight for a reason. It's so wild to me that, you know, the contrast that can happen where kiddos try to apply a coping skill and you know, if someone's told to walk and they're running cause they're scared and then told,

You can't do that. That's not safe. And for me as a kid, I was like, okay, I can't run, so I have to stay there. And that created this really strong internal and then deep breathing, I would try to deep breathe, but people would get worried and think that I was anxious. So a lot of that when I was a kid was trying to figure that out. And actually writing became my profound coping skill.

in a lot of ways. Granted, I definitely got in trouble for some of the things I wrote down, which I am one of those people that if a kiddo has a coping mechanism, it has to be supported in the schools or in the programs, whether or not the teachers like it, honestly. I was also a kid for a long time, and I hold true that this is actually really important period of life.

I used to swear when I got really mad. In fact, I still swear. Like if I'm really mad, sometimes dropping an F-bomb or yelling it is like the most conducive, calming thing that I can do. And people hated that. I now in my work, especially if there's someone with autism who's told to be quiet a lot, like I'll tell families, swearing is a very important part of life.

And telling someone to do that is like restricting a core part of human experience. now in everything that I did, I think it took me so long to learn a lot of these. I now do deep breathing, though I still have some of that intense frustration. I still swear from time to time. I try to do it better. There's a great saying I heard a while back, which is if you're going to swear, swear in a way no one will question it.

which I think is a beautiful way to look at that and shows a great deal of restraint. That being said, I do still go on walks. I still try to get away. What I've learned about myself is I'm a very movement-based person when I'm stressed and I do not like to be confined. I actually developed very severe claustrophobia that'll pop up from time to time.

because people tried to keep me in small rooms. Was not helpful, caused a very severe phobia. But now I think it's still that writing, it's still that story telling, but it's also practicing gratitude and managing my stress by playing my little mobile games. And on top of that, a lot of it is, especially in the last few years, I've really learned the importance of this.

A lot of it is working on moving past the emotion. That was one that took me way too long as an adult to learn. It's something I'm still learning, but there's so much power in getting to the point where when you're still stressed and you just tell yourself, sucks, this is gonna suck, I can either move past this genuinely.

or can let this eat, like rot me from the inside out. What am I gonna do? And that was a really powerful thing. And I am so grateful that I am continuing that journey of getting better.

Travis White (23:47)
Yeah, that's honestly something I've had to work on as well is to kind of push out certain emotions. Most of the time, this is like the, mean, I've always been aware of like certain things, like, but the last six months I've been doing some intense therapy and that's really what I've had to do is like sit there and learn how to subconsciously like dig in and be like, you know what?

something's coming up, I need to walk away from this situation, recollect my thoughts and go back so I don't overreact in this way. And it's, it's, it's a lot of work. It's not just overnight think. And I like, I loved what you said about the swearing. I actually worked at a, a boy's house when I was in my twenties, 39 now. So was a long time ago, but there's this one kid he was there for, I think he was just

anxiety generalized anxiety disorder, but he Every time I was on shift He would ask me he could come go outside and talk to me and he's like and I'd give him Once like 30, I think it was like 15 to 30 seconds of just yelling We'd go in the middle of a field where nobody could hear us Unless they were really paying attention and I'd give him 15 to 30 seconds to swear say whatever he wanted

And most of the time he would just yell the F word as loud as he could and just drag it out for that whole 15 seconds. And then when he was done he was like, okay, I'm done now, we can talk. And it was amazing what that did for him.

Thomas R Wilson (25:24)
It's... So I don't want to make... If there's a parent listening with a kiddo right now, I don't want to make your life harder by like, you know, glorifying something by any degree. But it is... It is surprising. Well, it's actually not all that surprising when you realize it, but words are our vessel.

Travis White (25:32)
you

Yeah.

Thomas R Wilson (25:50)
Words, and even if you're, and I don't like this phrase at all, but I know there's not a lot better ones right now. Like the nonverbal community. I really don't like the word nonverbal. I think it's such a limiting, I know it's like the primary word right now, but for that community. But words are this profound thing. I know my niece, she uses a talker and,

She and I have this great relationship. Like there was a solid, a solid few months where her parents had like Irish insults and like a few UK swears on there. And if you don't know what a good Irish insult is, I do not recommend, if there's like a 13 year old listening with their parents, do not look it up. They are intense.

Which is probably what anyone under the age of 15 is probably gonna do now. But they are fantastic. And every time she was mad at me, would like, I'd look at her and be like, are you okay? And she would pick the most obscene things. I it was fantastic. I would always cackle. She would leave with the biggest smile on her face, even if she was mad at me. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm gonna give her five minutes.

Travis White (26:39)
you

and

Thomas R Wilson (27:05)
and

we're gonna talk about this later. But it was fantastic because it was her connection and it was this, like it was for me, this instantaneous connection to my humanity, but also to her feelings and validating some things and for her to have someone who would allow that meant a lot to her.

Travis White (27:28)
That's awesome that you have that connection. that's really good stuff. What? And I know this is kind of you're kind of generalized like question, but I like to get the different answers from different people. But what do you think like is the biggest stigma towards like mental health?

Thomas R Wilson (27:31)
Thank you.

that's a hard question.

So I'm gonna have to kind of explain this a little bit. I think the biggest stigma right now, I almost was thinking misinformation, but I'm actually gonna say the lack of information. And what I mean by that is there are a lot of people in today's day and age who will read one book or listen to a podcast or

will watch a YouTube video or something and they will assume that they are informed on a very complex. And well, first of all, I don't mean any disrespect to anyone listening. Like obviously education is very important and it's a long process journey. But I think when we listen to one thing and then we assume that we're informed or we assume that

because we read one book, we now have knowledge that an expert has on something. It's very dangerous. And I think, I actually love social media. I think it's a great informational tool. What I have learned from it has been profound. And there's a lot of great people on there. But in that idea, there's a lot of people who think they're informed. And then...

they go out and do truly awful things with that information. Whether or not it's treating someone as less than because they assume that they are supposed to fit within a box that they saw in a video, or it's someone going out and turning to TikTok videos versus like webinars and like official trainings for teachers at schools or whatever it is.

really the core of it is the lack of knowledge. And I think if you want to know and you want to explore more, go on an education journey. Continue your learning over months, over however long you feel fit to when you have a high quality knowledge. And I think it's especially dangerous because, and I don't think it's necessarily the creators or wholly the person, it's

There is a lot of, and I'm trying to think of how to say this gently, but also accurately. There's a lot of unconscious and conscious harm that can happen to the mental health community when people are not informed in the sense of knowledge, but they're also not informed of how to care for people. I know that's a really roundabout way. I'm trying really hard to make sure I say this.

precisely. And if anyone needs any more information, I would just say the experience a lot of people have with doctors or nurses or someone who believe they know how to treat a person without treating the person and will kind of reduce them down to a diagnosis. The same thing can happen when you have snippets of information and

That experience is one that is profound and has happened to billions on this planet.

Travis White (31:05)
said. I love to hear all the different answers to that question. It's very generalized. But everybody has something different and it's really cool to hear those. I want to get more of shift focus here and go more into your business that you're running. What made you decide, like, this is what I want to do.

And like, what point did you know that you were just set on like helping people and going to use your story? And there's so many different things that you do within your business. I think it's really cool. It's just, you know, there's the speaking part of it, you know, storytelling. It just seems like there's so much you do with it, but I'd love for you to go into more detail.

why it all started and how it all started and.

Thomas R Wilson (31:52)
I mean, I think the thing that started it, and I think this is true of a lot of people, the first thing that really started it was that mistreatment in the school system. I was someone, and I think there is a few kind of key responses people have to being mistreated by a teacher or...

kind of being labeled or experiencing these things at a young age. Obviously there's more. This is kind of a very quick summation. But one, people get very quiet and they never do anything about it. Two, I think it sparks a real desire in a lot of people, especially narrative, various in mental health community. So much of us, when we experience inequity or evil or whatever in the world.

Our response is, don't want this to happen to anyone else, including myself. But I think there's like a third thing that happened. And again, very quick summation there. This is a very complex topic that's really hard to nail down quickly. I think there are people who watch on the outside.

and they want to see that change, but they don't know how to do it. And so I saw myself at a young age, the ability to share my story. And I know a lot of people urge to share their story, but not everyone is supposed to. And especially as a public speaker, like I can understand that and value that. There's a lot of power that happens just doing advocacy in the home or being kind to someone on a street corner, whether or not

You're doing a good work. I mean, doing this, well, that's not true. You're doing good work if you're doing that. Whether or not you're getting in front of an audience is what I meant to say. And so as I got older, I really wanted to stop this. I'm obviously not gonna change the whole world or be in front of millions on a state capital or something causing change. That's not me. But.

I can do the good in the world and change really does start, I believe, in a million little moments. And that will grow. But I will say now, like quite literally, learning everything I learned about empathy and kindness. Every day I get to see someone smile, who is once sad or someone who is once worried and afraid, be happy, play a game, hear a story.

Express themselves literally those millions of little moments seem to even just you know Even if it's on a million seems like there's thousands that pop up each day that is motivation and of itself, but then to Kind of watch a lot of things happening in the world and get to create moments of joy the moments of pain We don't often see in the news well Not the moments of pain

We get, you know, seeing those moments of pain in the news that we see. and being able to be the antithesis of that, getting the kids, see kids, be happy, getting to see people who might not have met each other, whether adults or kids play, engage, change the voice of Dr. Voice. All of the compliments I get are great. But at the end of the day, knowing that I'm causing change, even if it's small, even if it's simple, and then

Watching that blossom into the joy of the community. That is the reason I continue to do this. And at the same time, I get to help inspire people, help motivate people who'd be left behind. And I really do believe that every day bad things happen, but people who want to watch the world get better, people who want to help their community,

People who want to help the world, even if it's just one those one little moments, those are people that are going to be remembered and valued, even if you don't remember their name.

Travis White (35:38)
That's awesome. And it's just, like you said, those little comments, little stories that people share with you and just pushes you to keep going forward because you're hearing the good, you're realizing that you're doing good for the world. You it's just the slightest bit of change. I love it. Why do you think storytelling is such a powerful tool when it comes to this type of work?

Thomas R Wilson (35:48)
and

I think it is such a powerful tool. my gosh, I was gonna do my best to be short and concise for the sake of your time and your audience. So the short answer is I think storytelling is tied intrinsically to humanity. The long answer is obviously storytelling has existed.

Travis White (36:10)
No, no, you're good, you're good.

Thomas R Wilson (36:26)
Long before the United States, long before many countries. It's been around since the age of cave paintings, probably before. It's tied in art, movies, paintings, our day to day, how we write, how we talk, how we explore our humanity. Storytelling is like, in my opinion, the great art form because it is the

great human connection to our world. It's our understanding of our emotions, our universe, everything. Like it's, you can't go a day without seeing some form of storytelling in this world. And I think when it comes to our expression and our understanding of our mental health, we do better when we listen to stories. We do better when we explore our emotions and when you combine both of those things.

and think about how we can build real-life skills, how we can talk about how we can be better to ourselves, how we can explore how to access our coping skills and utilize our coping skills. Obviously, again, very big topic, but we as human beings thrive off of storytelling. It is everything about us. And I think at the end of the day,

Because of that, there is a responsibility to be used well and to be used better to help the community. And when you have something that is just so intrinsically tied to that, that it's going to fundamentally create those opportunities.

Travis White (38:06)
Good stuff and it's storytelling to me like it's it's You know It builds a good connection And if it's something that you resonate with you're always gonna remember it

And can you tell listeners about a time where there was someone in your program that found their voice or kind of just really just accelerated in your program that you offer?

Thomas R Wilson (38:36)
Definitely. So there's so many. But I've got to say, there's one person. I always make sure not to share people's names and things just out of respect, especially when it comes to kiddos. There's a protection that needs to happen there. I'm just going to, I will refer to this young lady as the young lady just out of her respect.

Travis White (38:44)
Mm-hmm, yeah, makes sense.

Thomas R Wilson (38:57)
I remember when I started one of my very first programs with my business. I partnered with a local organization called the Autism Community Store. It's a staple in its area here in Colorado. It's much loved, much respected, and has been around for ages.

There was a young lady, I think it was like the very first D &D game I did there for the youth. I remember her being shy, being a little worried. Her mom was worried about, you know...

Her playing because it was this was my gosh three maybe four years ago almost And didn't know if it'd be a good game and we get started we got playing she was very anxious a lot. She was a little stressed out which Dungeons and Dragons can do that to people I remember we kind of built a really strong connection. I just smiled said hello. We started playing the game It was a small group. So it worked really well

Like I said, that's been like three and a half years from then. This young lady shows up almost every session once a month. She has gained new furry friends so much that we say that she travels with a little box that's a zoo and she gets to pull her her D &D critters out whenever she wanted. She and I have, you know, through our imagination explored sky islands and you know met

beholders which are like these little tentacle creatures with eyes. We have fought satyrs and battled dragons, explored undead seas, all kinds of things. But the best part about it is since then, every time she shows up, she expresses joy to be there. She'll literally dance during our breaks because she's so happy to play the game.

And I think was about two years ago. It's wild to me that it's been two years. On her birthday, the Saturday before then, she showed up to me and she said, I am so excited. It's my birthday soon. And we gushed over how her birthday was, was going to be. And her mom took me aside and showed me that she got a D &D cake because her daughter loved the game so much. Had it custom made on Etsy. Had it sent over.

And it was one of our most favorite D &D monsters that she had figured out how to shrink down on all this really cool stuff. And I was so happy to see that. And then the actual day of her birthday, she told her mom that she wanted to show me the cake. So her mom once again said, you know, the young lady wanted you to see this. And it was just a

see that in a huge thank you to introducing her to D &D. That was about two years now. I can't imagine the group without the young lady. She is charismatic, fun, and joyful, and this group has had such a profoundly beautiful impact on her, but also me.

Travis White (41:57)
It's so cool. Like you were able to pull her out pretty much of her comfort zone and like make her like just make her personality shine from what it sounds like. I love it. And those are.

Thomas R Wilson (42:10)
Thank you. I do have to

give her a lot of the credit.

Travis White (42:15)
love stories like that. Thank you for sharing.

What, I just have a few more questions here. What do you think or what do you wish more people understood about what it takes to like for this type of advocacy for like the work that you're doing?

Thomas R Wilson (42:39)
I so, there's so much. I would say I wish more people knew that it isn't as always as hard as it seems. I think what holds a lot of people back is they're really nervous and worried about getting started because it's hard work. It is hard work and it can be very challenging.

And there are bad days. There are days that I go home and I am burnt out for like two to three days after that day. That being said, I wish people knew that the first things you need are the ability to listen, the ability to practice empathy, and the desire to try again. And then after that, I wish more people knew

rewarding it was and that you don't have to be perfect to do this work. You may have to lead by example, you may have to try really hard, but I really wish there were more people doing the work.

Travis White (43:47)
And this is pretty much the last question I always ask everybody is what do you tell someone that is struggling with a mental health issue? What piece of advice can you give them?

Thomas R Wilson (44:01)
So I have two different ones. One of them is you gotta keep moving. And I know that that is such a stereotypical response, but what I wanna add to that is literally you've got to. Like I know there's so much mentality around if you just keep moving, everything's gonna be perfect. It's not. Similar to work I do, there are gonna be days where it sucks. There's gonna be days when you wanna cry.

where you want to give up, where you want to hold on and just do whatever you can to nullify the pain. And then I'm going to add the second one, is that human beings have an incredible, amazing ability to thrive in pain. We have the ability to overcome.

And the only time that you can truly give in to this illness, and I have so much respect for mental illness in general, but it is an illness, it can be very much like a cancer that can rot you from the inside out. The only way you will not survive this. As long as you keep moving, as long as you don't give up on yourself, you'll survive.

And that really is, if you give up on yourself, if you give up and give in to the sadness, the anger, the pain, it's gonna take you down with it. But you as a human being have the ability, that raw, beautiful, stubborn tenacity to fight it, to beat it, to master it, and to do better.

So please do not give up on yourself.

Travis White (45:50)
Very good. A lot of times that's really hard to... It's good advice. It's really hard to do sometimes when you're in those dark, dark moments. Thomas, is there anything that you'd like to touch base on that we have not discussed already?

Thomas R Wilson (46:05)
The last thing I really want to highlight, I can make sure all my links are in the chat, but I want to emphasize, I know I've talked about a lot of positives, a lot of other things. And like I said, all my links will be in chat. So first of all, reach out to me if you've got questions or you want to know where to access resources. I'm glad to answer those. And really just to have conversations about in people interested in the work.

But the other thing I also really want to say, and this is, I'm being a little sneaky because this is technically a third piece of advice. but I also want to emphasize every person's experience with mental health and mental illness is entirely different. it is okay to be frustrated if people assume they know you just because they have similar experiences. It's okay to be happy.

when you have good days, even if you've been struggling. But I also want to emphasize that you as people, anyone listening, and this is also for me to say for myself for a little bit too, our journeys are perfectly imperfect and you don't need to be perfect to survive in them. You don't need to be perfect to thrive in them. And if we honor that and understand our journeys are

uniquely different, each and every one, we can work together to make our lives with mental illness much better.

Travis White (47:33)
Thank you for that. is there any like social media accounts you want to guide our listeners to or anything like that?

Thomas R Wilson (47:41)
absolutely. Yeah, so you can find me at LinkedIn Thomas R. Wilson, R &H Creative Advocacy and Storytelling, LLC. You can also find my website. I'll make sure that one is linked. That's rnhcreativeadvocacyandstorytelling.net. That one's kind of long. I learned a lot about website URLs after I registered that. But I love the website, so I'm not getting rid of it.

I also have my email which is, and I promise you, you might get confused on this, is ndttrpg at gmail.com. Again, learned a lot about email usernames after I set that one up. And I'll make sure that's linked below. On top of that, I will have my link tree. I will have...

A few other resources as well. I don't know about anyone else, but after listening to me talk for almost an hour, I can understand if your brain is not ready to retain URLs, which I do not blame you. That being said, I do want to say thank you for having me on.

Travis White (48:45)
Thank you, thank you for coming on. I really thoroughly admire the work that you're doing. I really want you to know that like, it's good to have quality people on and discuss the hard topics that we have to discuss.

Thomas R Wilson (48:52)
Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Travis White (49:07)
Because I know you're out there touching lives and I'm sincere when I, I know I reply to almost every question the same and say like, oh, this is so good. Like, I sincerely mean it. I love it. I'm learning a lot. You've taught me a lot about neurodiversity that I didn't know before. And I look forward to following you and I know that you'll bring listeners some good stuff. So.

Thomas R Wilson (49:36)
Thank you. Absolutely.

Travis White (49:37)
Thanks again for your time.

And to all my listeners out there, thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Please follow us at OvercomePod on LinkedIn, not LinkedIn, Instagram and YouTube. The best thing you can do for our show right now is go follow us, share our stuff, and just get the word out there. Thanks again. Until next time.