Overcome - A Mental Health Podcast

The Courage to Speak Your Truth: Kath Essing on Overcoming Childhood Abuse

• Travis White | Mental Health Advocate • Episode 38

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In this episode of Overcome: A Mental Health Podcast, host Travis White speaks with author and speaker Kath Essing about her powerful journey of overcoming childhood abuse and finding healing through speaking her truth. Kath shares the story behind her book, The Courage to Speak Your Truth, and how breaking her silence became the key to reclaiming her power, improving her mental health, and helping others on their path of overcoming childhood abuse.

Throughout the conversation, Kath opens up about:

  • Overcoming childhood abuse and the lasting impact of trauma on mental health
  • The role of dissociation, depression, and recovery in her healing journey
  • Why speaking your truth is essential to overcoming childhood abuse
  • How survivors can navigate the justice system while protecting their inner peace
  • What loved ones can do to support someone overcoming childhood abuse

Kath’s story is a reminder that while the process of overcoming childhood abuse is complex, it can lead to resilience, self-empowerment, and deep transformation. By raising awareness and sharing her truth, Kath provides hope for survivors and encouragement for allies to listen and support.

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Hello and welcome to Overcome a Mental Health Podcast, place for you to share your mental health stories. I am very excited for you all to be listening and I'm very excited for today's guest. I'm speaking with Kath Essink. Kath is an author and speaker who advocates for individuals to speak up and be heard. Welcome to the show, Kath. Thanks, Teris. Thank you. Lovely to be here. m It's my pleasure to have you on the show and I am just gonna go, let's just dive right in and I'm gonna turn the time over to you and why don't you go ahead and take us on your journey. I have just published a book this year called The Courage to Speak Your Truth and that book is about the remembering, recovering and reporting of my childhood sexual abuse. And navigating this time, couldn't find any resources for adult survivors who'd been through this as a child. So for me, it was really about creating something that might add some value and support other people who navigate the same things. Unfortunately, statistically, those numbers are high. It's one in three girls and one in five boys who will endure some form of sexual abuse before the age of 18. and many of us as survivors don't remember this abuse until adulthood. So it's an important conversation to have and in terms of mental health, I think there's a lot of adults walking around navigating issues with their mental health unknowingly related to abuse that potentially is still suppressed. And what, let me think of how to phrase this, but this was happening, how old were you at the time? I remembered my abuse when I was 23 years old. The first incident happened when I was five and the last incident happened when I was 11. It was someone that was related to me and that I can't name for legal reasons, but a male relative that was known to my parents and no one had any idea. I was a very happy child. And as I said, I kept this secret from myself for a long time too. I completely disassociated from the events that happened as a form of survival, which I've since learned more and more about in terms of trauma recovery. And it's unfortunately, it's not uncommon for people to navigate this way. It's that there are many of us are familiar with the fight, flight, fawn or freeze. And in this case, I took flight and I just got out of there. So when I came back into my body, my body still carried the memories of the incident, but my mind was completely separate from it. Yeah, I could see why that is such a traumatic experience. But so when you finally came out with all this information, what made you think of it's time, it's time to tell my story and... When I remembered the abuse at 23, it was honestly such a turbulent period of my life because putting the pieces back together of a big messy puzzle that was like felt like it was laid on the floor and trying to make sense of what was real, what was missing, what I still needed to find. And I feel like that I've done that in certain periods of my life. And then I became a parent and I guess that unvalu... veiled a whole new level of looking at my own abuse and I looked at it from a different lens and my daughter particularly, who's my oldest, was then a bit of a mirror to my experiences and so I needed to find out how to ensure that that was not going to impact me as a parent and so I felt like I channeled some of my frustration and... During COVID, I had some space in my life to really think about it and I didn't want it to impact me anymore. So that's when I chose to go to police and tell them what had happened and navigate the legal system. Well, that would be tough. Like, I'm getting just chills just thinking about it. And going to police, did you actually see any justice done to this individual? Poetically, yes, not in terms of, you know, that it's very difficult to... When I first went to police, they told me that about 23 % of all victims are predicted to come forward. But from those 23%, only about 10 % ever end up in the courts. And when they do end up in courts, it's only about 1 % that's ever prosecuted. So the police were very honest with me about these statistics from the beginning and I knew that it was going to be a very slim chance to do it. But I felt like for me, more so than getting justice for my perpetrator, it was about giving voice to my inner child and to reclaim the narrative that had been taken from me. And so from that perspective, I very much was able to achieve that and... I feel at peace with where things are at. If someone else was to come forward and go to police, that my investigation would be able to be used in their trial, or if that's where it proceeded. But if that doesn't happen, it's not something that I need. My abuser got arrested during the process and interviewed. So that felt important. I got to confront him about what had happened and... I think that was the reclaiming, that was the moment where I took my power back that had been taken from me. And so that to me feels like justice. Yeah, and I think that's important. Like you hit on a key phrase right there that I think is really important for people to understand is you took your power back. I just wanted to point that out because I think that's a huge piece of you overcoming this and healing. Absolutely. And I think, you know, at any point in our lives, whether we're children or adults and somebody takes that power from us, it, it, their reclaiming is part of the journey. And it's very significant and important when our agency was taken from us to be able to ensure that the soul and the self that was impacted is put back together. And I certainly feel in my case that I'm I'm lucky enough to have been able to do that through this process. And you mentioned that you kind of dissociated during the time like this all happened and did you like completely like forget that it all happened? And what was your kind of mental health like in those years after it happened up until you were able to come out and tell the police? Well, the reason that I remembered the abuse was because depression came knocking and I think that my body was trying to tell me that there was something there to pay attention to. So my body and my mind almost collided before the thoughts in my psyche were able to catch up. the depression was like evidence that there was something underneath that needed to be addressed. And so my mental health was probably the worst it ever was. then remembering the abuse was like a whole new trauma in itself. It was like ripping off a bandaid and seeing a wound that you didn't know was there. So for me, was really these incidents were one part of the challenge, remembering with the other and then going to police was a whole new beast in itself. But collectively, the process has allowed me to be on the other side of it and telling my story, it's helped me understand how often I kept myself quiet and contained for the comfort of other people, more so for the wellbeing of myself. And I think that both men and women do that, but it's often common for women to do that and make sure everyone's okay. You know, I was brought up being a good girl and not wanting to ruffle feathers too much and You know, and I'm done with that now. Take me or leave me, this is who I am. I think that's awesome. I love it. said too often you were quiet. You stay quiet from the comfort of other people. I think a lot of people going through your mental health problems do that. it's like, it's because you don't want to do it. Well, first of all, being vulnerable and speaking up against something you're dealing with is a hard thing to do. And then in the moment you do make people uncomfortable talking about emotions and stuff. But so I find that awesome that you're able to come above and share your story and speak up and help others. oh what remained there before the bridge of connection between myself and others was a wall that this silence created. And so I guess that's my recommendation to people, no matter what it is that they're carrying or no matter what it is that they're staying silent about. It can be a real barrier of connection. not just to others but to ourselves and so whatever that internal story is we need to face it in order to find that peace within ourselves and that joy in our lives. 100 % agree with you and I always say on the show, but I'll repeat it every episode if I have to just because I find it important that first step to basically overcoming your mental health issues or depression, anxiety, whatever it is, is admitting you have a problem. So then you can take the correct steps to uncover whatever that issue, underlying issue is. Yeah. And I'd even go further than that and say that it's not even necessarily about admitting it's a problem, but just accepting that it's there. You know, that in my case, it was, it felt like a significant problem. It felt really uncomfortable. The depression was debilitating and it, it felt like the essence of who I was was ripped out from underneath me overnight. And I just didn't have a path forward. And I know that many people who've experienced depression have felt like that. So for me it was that not that the depression was the problem, was that what was under the surface was just ready to come out and that was the problem. That was what needed to be addressed. So as you were writing your memoir, was that the hard thing to do? it uncover too many wounds that you didn't want to open or was it more healing? was very healing. The book only took five weeks to write. So it was almost like a faucet, a tap got turned on and the words just kept coming and I couldn't stop them. Once I realized what it was that I wanted to say, it just evolved and created itself. The aftermath of publishing the book, that's been complexed because, you know, I'm having conversations like this over and over again. And, you know, and I'm also conscious of how other people are responding to the book. I've been really grateful that it's been received really well. And I've had the privilege of being gifted with so many stories of connection and survival. that people have reached out to family members they know who've been abused and never quite understood it, or they've faced their own stories, or they've been able to support a friend who's facing theirs. And that was really important to me when I wrote it to make sure that it was written in a way that was gonna serve the audience, not just about making sure it was about my healing. So I think I was lucky the healing was done prior to, and there's always room for more. And certainly, you know, there's been some bumps along the road since publishing it, but fundamentally, I'm ready to talk about this because it's actually not about me anymore. It's about the fact that I really feel passionately about raising awareness so that we can change the numbers and the statistics and help support those who've been through it. I love that. think that's, I can't say it's, I love it. Like the statistics that you mentioned, they're actually quite hard to hear because you really, when you think about it, you don't think that the statistics are really that high. Like you said one in every three females and was it one out of every five male? Yeah. our population, you know, when you do the maths and it is confronting and I think what's even more confronting for me is that it mirrors that in our workplaces, you know, the harassment against women is often one in three and similarly people aren't speaking up. So we, you we're all curating our stories for comfort of others or for the safety of our livelihood or you know, to ensure relationships can be maintained. Because 90 % of the time children know they're perpetrator, and 50 % of the time it's someone that's related to them. So this is what makes it so complicated to speak up about. It's not as easy as have I remembered or can I forget? It's what are the repercussions of me having this conversation? And why do you think it is that people don't speak up enough? Well, so many people that I know that have have lost their entire families or their support network. So I guess it's, you know, a bit like asking why a woman in a violent situation doesn't leave, you know, that there's coercive control involved. There's other people to consider. And it's certainly not something I'm an expert on, but it is a very uncomfortable conversation. it's, you know, there's a lot of shame. and related to talking about this for a lot of people. And so I think that before someone can navigate their own silence and shame and misplaced blame on themselves, then I think that it is difficult to talk about it openly. Yeah. Well, I commend you and anyone else out there that's listening that are openly talking about it. Because I think we need to find a way to do that exact thing. That's why I started the show, is to talk about stuff. Yeah. And look, it's, you know, and I love that you're doing this because, you know, it's interesting. Like if we have gastro or if we have a headache, you know, we're comfortable talking about our physical elements and needing support when something's physically wrong and fail to remember that, you know, any depressive illness or mental health challenge is, is a body's way of saying we're not okay. The same way that a tummy ache is. And yet the conversations around it are just so vastly different. And I think that really needs to change in the workplace, that needs to change in our personal lives. And so many people are carrying their own stories that they haven't shared. And so that's impacting their health, both physically and mentally. yeah, I agree. I recently was talking to somebody within my neighborhood that was going through some stuff. And I walked in the door and I was like, you know, we really have no idea like what anybody else is going through. Like too often I think about, you know, me, like, what am I going through? What are my problems? At the same time, it's not always about me. It should be about other people. Everyone's got a story. I really believe that and part of the program that I run with organizations is called Shifting the Narrative on the stories that shape us and understanding what that internal narrative is and understanding what those beliefs are that are driving our experience means that we can then get really clear on the conveyed part of ourselves, the curated part of ourselves, the part that shows up in the workplace, that shows up with our families or our partner or our children. And only then can we kind of start to look at identifying the gap between what we think and then how we act. And when we do that, that's when mental health minimizes. That's where, you know, the cognitive dissonance becomes smaller and that's when the flow of joy becomes larger. Very well said. So if someone is listening to the show right now and going through a similar experience of what's been mentioned, what's one thing that... Actually, let me rephrase that. If they're listening to the show and they have a loved one going through a similar experience, what's one thing they could do or say to show their support? I think that's a fabulous question. And as I said, that's why I wrote the book. So for me, I think it's remembering that, you know, when someone is grieving from a loved one passing away, there aren't rules about at what stage of grief you should go through in what order. And I think we need to start looking at healing the same way that it might be three steps forward and 10 steps back. And, and there might be triggers that occur that are really hard to understand. But if it's hard for you to understand as a bystander, then just know that the person navigating it is a thousand times more confused than you are. It hasn't been easy on my husband or my siblings or my parents to support me over the years. But the times that I felt the most seen are when people didn't try and have the answers and they just held space for me to feel whatever I had to feel. Yeah, at times we basically just need someone to listen to us and hear what we're going through. Definitely, and you know, one of the talks that I do about this topic that is my through line is that healing doesn't come from speaking out, it comes from feeling heard. And when we're validated and we're seen, and that starts with being able to listen to ourselves and hear that in an internal narrative so that we can start to get clear on what we want to say externally. Let's see, where was my mind just went? I had a thought after that, but you'll have to forgive me. It's Monday. if you could change, like looking back with your interactions with like the police and stuff, if you could change one thing about the justice system for survivors, what would it be and why? I would love for it to be more trauma informed. The day that I rang my abuser, I went to the police station. It was during COVID and we had some pretty complex lockdowns as you did in America. And so I went on my own and it was never suggested that that should happen in any other way. making that phone call was probably as an adult, the hardest thing I'd done. in terms of facing my journey. And only a few months before I had an issue with my shoulder. And when I went to get this operation, they made me sign a disclaimer to say that someone would be there to drive me home. And I remember thinking that the same should have happened that day when I went to the police station and made that phone call that it wasn't safe for me to be on my own. It wasn't safe for me to drive myself home. had I have not been informed about what disassociation looked like and felt like, then it could have been really dangerous for me to get in the car. So I had to ask for some support by a counsellor and I told her that she needed to put me back in my body. and that I completely exited and many people untrained to know that about themselves and to me that should be part of the process that emotional well-being and emotional support should be encouraged absolutely every step of the way and certainly in my case it wasn't. Yes, that's rough to go through. And you mentioned you've mentioned a couple times dissociated kind of dissociating from your body. I've actually gone through a little bit some pieces of this. And I just want to know from like what you've been through when you dissociate, like when you kind of come back to and realize like, you may have been gone for a while, like, do you remember anything? Or is it just like complete blur? For me, I had a situation recently where I had a cyst arrive in my body and the doctor was so perplexed and this was a week before my book was launched and she said, I don't understand how you're not feeling anything. And so I was physically, I was emotionally there, but I just had, disassociated physically and it wasn't until after the surgery that... I really found myself back in my body and in immense pain. So for me in that instance, it was complete physical disassociation. And that tends to be how it kind of plays out for me, but I'm getting more aware of it. And I, and I am now, you know, I've done a lot of work on that and putting the pieces back together. It is a survival mechanism. So it's something that I know may not entirely go away, but it is, it's that I do understand the signs now for myself and I have to give myself rest because I have a tendency to just get out of my own way so I can keep going. so, you know, often for me now getting unwell, I don't see again as a problem, I see it as evidence that I'm not listening to my body, that I need to come back into play, slow down and get back into myself. I guess that's a good way of putting it. And because for a long time, so I have a medical disorder, I have seizures. And when they first started, I found myself dissociating to get through things. But back then, I didn't realize this. What was going on was I was completely dissociating, but mine was like more mentally. I'd forget who I was. I forget people around me. I wander off. And then I come back home or somebody would find me. And when I came out of it, I didn't remember a thing. Very cool. Do you know you did this? Like, no. It's like, well, at the time I can't say it was scary because I didn't know where I was at. I didn't know what was going on, but, yeah, I was just curious from like somebody else's viewpoint of, well, kind of what's going on with you. Well, during the incidents of abuse that occurred, the memories that I have are a couple of them are actually from an aerial view. So I almost was looking down on myself. And, you know, and like with any trauma recovery, it's like little pieces of fixated information as opposed to a whole picture. So I guess that you know, that's the same for how it sort of shows up for me now. It's like, you know, I might fixate on one thing and then get frustrated by that. And I realize I'm just sort of shutting every other bit of evidence that everything's okay out. So, you know, that again becomes an opportunity for learning about myself and where I'm at in that moment. Isn't it crazy though how our body and our mind decide to deal with trauma though? It's so different for each person. so different. And that's why I always like using the analogy around grief because, you know, no two people ever grieve the same when they experience a loss and, and no two trauma survivors are ever going to navigate their healing journey in the same way. And, you know, I joke about the fact that for me, everything from medication to meditation helped me and every sort of, you know, crazy thing in between every conventional conservative thing in between. And what worked at one stage of my healing didn't necessarily work the next time. So I think really self-awareness is the greatest gift we can give ourselves and the capacity to really listen to what our body and mind is telling us in the moment. And we can only do that when we quiet the noise and you know when we sit still enough to hear it. Yeah, I very much agree with you. And sometimes it's tough though to pay that close attention to your body. But in the end, you know your body better than any doctor, any therapist or anybody else out there. That's right. know, and men and women go through various phases in their life, you know, that for me, it's, I'm at a new phase of perimenopause, which is bringing up a whole lot of new kind of challenges for women around me and, you know, mental health challenges and physical issues. And, you know, until you're in a situation, you obviously don't get educated about it, but it's interesting to see that trauma is also playing a part in showing up for people now at this point in their lives. And, and it's really important to be aware of what external triggers are occurring for us every day to give us the experience of life that we're having. And for survivors who are still in the thick of it, what message do you want them to hear loud and clear? that it feels messy. And you know, I know it does. And some days the analogy of, you know, reorganizing a cupboard and having everything that you've pulled out all over the bench. And then you look at it, you've got to put it all back in some kind of symmetrical way. And that feeling of getting to the end and seeing everything in order and knowing that there's nothing draining energy anymore. It's, you know, you can't it's been worth all the hard work. So I feel very grateful. And just don't try and do it on your own. know that if you know, invest in professionals, talk to your friends, if your family isn't ready to hear it, then find people who are. And, you know, for me, journaling was really healing, like getting the words out of me, writing, and ensuring that, you know, I was at least hearing my own voice, even if I wasn't brave enough to speak it out loud yet. then that was really pivotal in beginning my healing journey. And throughout your speaking and, I'll say, storytelling, how do you balance sharing the raw truth and with the need to protect your own inner peace? Well, I think for me, I give space to myself to protect that inner peace. And, you know, I was actually writing, I'm doing a training next week for an organization and I'm writing the stories this morning. And one of the stories that I'm going to share is that, you know, I've spoken on stage before and afterwards had 20 people in a row disclose their stories to me. So I've had to get really clever at maintaining, you know, that uh ensuring that vicarious trauma isn't going to impact me further in this journey. So I created this visualization where each of their stories became like a log for this fire between us, that it wasn't about capturing their stories for me to carry, it was about using their stories as fuel to ignite this flame that was going to be able to keep burning and ensure that I still had the energy to keep going. So that's really working for me at the moment. It just means that I can still remain holding space for people as they tell me their stories, but I'm not necessarily responsible for carrying it afterwards. Yeah, I love the what you just said. And I might not say the exact same word, but wait, but using your story to ignite the flame to keep burning. I absolutely love that. Yep, their story is my fuel to keep going. That's really good. Yeah, I like to, as I go through and talk to different people, I like to just write down those different things that I hear. And I always say, oh, I might use that, but I never do because I always forget. And your own truths come through you in the moments you need them, so... Yeah, for sure. And so what's What's been the most moving feedback that you've received since publishing your book? I had a woman reach out to me to tell me that her brother had been incarcerated and had years of drug issues and she was estranged from him but while he was in prison he remembered some abuse that occurred by a school teacher when he was eight years old. And so after she saw me speak and read my book she reached out to her brother and they've since reconnected and he's read my book. And so there, you know, I feel really humbled by that because that was the motivation for writing it was that for it to be a bridge between people and an opportunity for deeper understanding of ourselves and others. And so the more stories like that that I hear, the more I want to keep going as I know that this is an important conversation. And even when we find peace, we can still have moments of sadness and darkness that creeps up on us. So the more we talk about it and the more we talk about looking after our own mental health and and seeing the signs in ourselves and others that need to be noticed to avoid catastrophe then I think that the you know the more healing that will occur. That's amazing that somebody reached out to you and told you about their brother and it reconnected them. It's crazy, dude, like how... health stories like that when we hear them as like the creator, how it just really pushes us to keep moving forward because something like that is so important. Absolutely, and also encouraging parents to be braver with the conversations they have with their children. You know, my children know my story and they don't know details of my abuse because it's not relevant, but they know my story enough to know that I will always be there to hear whatever concerns they have. And I think it's really important for parents to teach their children to trust their instincts about people and You know, my mom was devastated when I told her what happened to me because it never occurred to her that she'd have to warn me about someone that she trusted. And I guess, unfortunately now we know statistically that we do. So being able to teach children about, you know, self agency and to advocate and trust themselves and their instincts. I think that's the important conversation. It's not about scaring children, but it's about preempting the fact that, you know, we don't know what what they're going to face and with whom and so it's just really important for them to know that there's a safe place for them to come to talk about any concerns they have no matter how small. Yeah, I think it's important to basically give your children the same space and have a voice. And, let's see if I can think of how to phrase this without. So with, your child, sexual abuse, do you find, let's see, try, I don't know how to say it, like in my head it's there. So you'll just have to bear with me. Do you find like it may have like, kind of pushed your parenting style a different way than what it could have previously been. I do, but in a positive way. So I think that what it's done, certainly I've been protective of my children and I, you know, I've had this conversation with my daughter where I've said, you know, there's, I've been very selective about where she has sleepovers and, but she's never known that. And I guess what it's done is for me to have provided a really happy home for my kids to want to be in and then we have kids come to us. I've really built some very trusted relationships with people around me so that I can let them have that freedom. And as long as they feel safe to keep talking to me, I know really that's all I can control. unfortunately, and really healing my own story so that it's not the story for my children to have to carry on my behalf. That's been my motivation and to ensure that the intergenerational trauma ends with me and that their experiences are vastly different. Yeah, that makes sense. I heard the story, I think it was a couple of years ago, but it was that this guy had told his daughter that she couldn't have sleepovers until she was 18 when she could officially, you know, was adult and could make her own decisions. So she turned 18, you know, she always complained to her dad like, well, why not? Like everybody else is doing, going to be part of that sleepover. It's a big thing. He's like, no, no, it's just not happening. So when she turned 18, she had her first sleepover, a big group of girls, and she called him up that night and said, Dad, I want to thank you. And she said, well, what did I do? She said, you saved me. And he's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And she continued to tell him that in that group of girls that they were talking about childhood sexual abuse. and how many girls in that group had actually been abused. And she was one of the only ones in that group that had not been. And it was because her dad put those extra rules as she was growing up. And I just thought that was really touching to hear something like that. Yeah, and look, you know, that's where I think we just, we also need to teach our children that it's okay if they go somewhere and feel uncomfortable that they can change their mind. and um that's why, you know, we've had kids who've come to our home that's very safe and who've just decided they want to go home for different reasons. And their parents are so embarrassed. And I say, don't be embarrassed. Like this is, this is great parenting because they feel safe enough to say they're tired or they don't feel well and they want to go and they know that you'll respond well. Like this is what we want, this is how we teach our children to stand up for themselves and others. So I think that the more permission we give our children to be honest about how they're feeling, then the greater chance they have of avoiding situations that they think they can't get out of. Yeah, very true. It takes a lot, especially as a teenager, to stand up and walk away from something that you're uncomfortable with. It's tough. you know, even as a child in primary school, seeing bad behavior and knowing when to stand up for other people and when to step in and the same applies in the workplace. It's very complex at times when we see and just accept bad behavior around us and everyone else seemingly is accepting it so we don't say anything. But this is unfortunately how the bystander effect impacts environments and individuals' experiences within that environment. So I think it's really important to speak up when it feels right and and to teach other people that it's safe to do the same. And speaking of speaking up, I have a question kind of deals more with the legal side of things. So when somebody finally decides that they want to go and share their story with the police, what advice do you have to give to them? In my book I do talk about how there are a few things I wished I had have known before I stepped into this process. The first was that Part of the reason that it couldn't proceed to trial was that the language that I used in my witness statement was different to the language that the three women that I'd confided in in my twenties used because the only word I could find at the time was abused. And obviously the language changed over time. And so I realized that had I have gone to police when I first remembered and just given them a statement and said, this is what has happened and this is what I've remembered, but I'm not ready to do anything about it. That might've been the difference between proceeding to trial and not. So I think people need to understand that the police are there as a resource and that just because we enter the police station doesn't mean we're locked into an 18 month investigation. At any time I could have put press pause on what was going on. At any time I could have taken a break. And I think that that's important for people to know, because I didn't know that. And I was quite overwhelmed by the concept of how much time and energy this was going to take from my life. Yeah, I could see that side of it. watch, I love true crime shows, so I watch enough to kind of see how things happen on both sides of the spectrum. And I could see that being really daunting to go in and tell your story. Yeah, look, and for me, it was almost a bit of an out of body experience, to be honest. I just kind of found myself at the police station one day after I'd taken my kids to a justice march and just had this realization that... that I was promoting justice to my children and speaking up and advocacy, but I actually hadn't done it entirely for myself. So that was my motivation at the time. I had no idea what the process would entail, but from there it was complicated. And COVID was a very complex time. So I never met any of the detectives face to face. A lot of it was online over the phone. that... was problematic, but it was also there was space to do it and to just feel it all and to navigate it in a way that maybe I may not have been able to if life had been busier than it was. And I've said this before, but good on you for pushing forward and coming to terms with everything that you've been through. I truly admire what you're doing and how you're trying to bridge that gap between survivors and everything. I think it's really neat. Thank you. And look, as I said, everyone's got a story and this issue is one that impacts a lot of people, whether it's because people have experienced it themselves or like the story you shared about the 18 year old girl, they will know someone who has experienced this. whether it's surviving or being a supporter of a survivor, this is one of those situations that we potentially won't go through life not having been impacted by. So I think that's even more reason to talk about it and even more reason to shift the conversation with children early so that we make sure that it happens less to the next generation of children. And, you know, ideally is, you know, eradicated completely, but at least, you know, have people who do this held accountable and, you know, and, and just protect those that are most vulnerable in our society. Absolutely agree. So what's next for you? It's going to be more writing, continue speaking, advocacy work. Yeah, a lot of advocacy around this issue and workplace training around harassment and giving voice to minorities in organizations who without them we'd lack innovation and diversity. And so it's really important that we just give voice to those that maybe haven't been taught or have been silenced because of particular societal kind of structures, but you know, I'm really passionate about everyone sharing their story and that learning from those stories and teaching each other from those stories. you know, mine's just one of a big tapestry of stories in amongst what I hear and I just feel forever humbled by learning about the different challenges people navigate and learning from how they navigate those challenges. So yeah, just the more I tell stories, the more I hear them and the more I grow. Yeah, isn't that really cool to let just to learn how other people navigate the issues that they're going through in life? because I find myself all the time after I've heard somebody or after a podcast is over, like, you know, I never thought of it that way. But you gave me a new perspective. You gave me an idea of something that I want to try and do. It happens all the time. Yeah, it's amazing. And that's life, know, every day you can grow and learn and evolve. I trust that there's a lot of growth happening from people reading my book. My book's also on Spotify and Audible. So if people want to listen to the story being narrated, then it's on there too. And I, you know, sometimes learning comes from obscure places and often I've learnt the most through stories that are completely unrelated to my own challenges. So I think that, you know, resilience and courage just is one of those universal things that we can learn from no matter what the story. very well said. And I just have kind of one general question left here for you. I ask everybody that comes onto the show because I love to hear the different feedback that I get. What is the biggest stigma in regards to mental health in your mind? I think the need to silence people about their personal problems in the workplace. and you know that it's safer for people to say they've got a migraine or a stomach ache than they need a mental health day, that they're overwhelmed and they feel unwell emotionally. And I think that once that changes then we'll have a much more well-rounded society when we give each other permission to be honest about you know that my son he's 10 and I gave him a mental health day the other day and my husband thought I was crazy but I just want him to know that occasionally we just need to kind of have a rest emotionally and mentally from the world and if that means watching surfing on YouTube for a couple of hours and then getting bored and wishing he had a go on to school then so be it because he hasn't asked for a day off since and you know sometimes taking a break before we need it is exactly what the gift you know we should be giving ourselves is. Yeah, I like that. And it's I think that's important too. And you made me think of like, of myself, like, I didn't hear of somebody taking a mental health day or admitting it was a mental health day when it came to like my professional career until I it was about three or four years ago. Some person I worked with would just say, taking a mental health day, just not caring how it's perceived. And I now thinking about it, actually admire that because not everybody can do that. I know I can't. Like I have been able to. But like, I'll, I have no problem like, you know, calling in sick or saying I'm not going to be online for a day. I mainly work from home. But I don't always tell it's a mental health day. But like I'll be open to my wife being like, you know what, she's like, why are you not working? Well, I'm taking a mental health day. She's like, okay, that sounds good. it's crazy isn't it because I think most of our physical elements stem from our emotional state anyway so indirectly when someone says to me I'm just exhausted and had the flu I just think I wonder what's sitting underneath that uh but that's not how everyone perceives it. It's crazy how much our mind and body are so connected. You don't really know that though until you start looking into some of this stuff. That's another conversation in notice self. And see just two more things here. Where can people find you? My website is called www.bespeak.au and that's got all my social media handles on it. So that's probably the easiest place to go. And then they can follow me on Instagram and LinkedIn. And as I said, my book's available in America on Amazon and Booktopia. So if you want to grab a copy, then that can happen over there and in that respect or listen to it on Spotify or Audible. Awesome. And last one here, is there anything that we did not discuss that you would like to bring up? No, I think I've really enjoyed our conversation and I... I just think that, you know, that where I'm sitting at the moment in my career is starting to understand that so many of us internal stories are impacting our external experiences. And, and, know, we're playing a lot of that out in our workplaces. So, you know, you asked what I would change about the legal system. Well, probably what I'd change about the corporate world is the capacity for people to be more honest about their stories and bring more of themselves to work than is acceptable. Because I think once We ensure that everyone is authentically themselves and that's when we bring the best out in people and that's when innovation and success will drive all the things that are important in business like profitability and growth. So I think that the more we can get comfortable with the uncomfortable, the more we can succeed in life. Yeah, but very well put. And I had a manager that used to tell me, if you're not uncomfortable, you're not doing it right. So he would always throw me into like these situations that I have no idea what I was doing, but he had the faith in me that I could do well and that I'd overcome it and figure it out. But, and they turned into some of my biggest like growth opportunities. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Kath, thank you so much for coming on the show. I enjoyed our conversation as well. And I think it's been an important one that many listeners will get a lot of insight out of. Thanks so much, Travis. I really appreciate you having me. And thank you to all the listeners out there. Thanks for taking the time to tune in. Please subscribe, like, review, and share our stuff. It's the best thing for us right now is just to get our name out there. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.