Overcome - A Mental Health Podcast

Overcoming Paralysis: Ken Kunken’s Story of Resilience and Hope

• Travis White | Mental Health Advocate • Episode 42

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In this episode of Overcome: A Mental Health Podcast, host Travis White speaks with Ken Kunken — a lawyer, author, and lifelong advocate whose journey of overcoming paralysis redefines what’s possible.

At age 20, Ken broke his neck playing football at Cornell University, leaving him paralyzed from the shoulders down. Instead of giving up, he began the lifelong process of overcoming paralysis through determination, education, and purpose. Today, he’s a husband, father, and retired Assistant District Attorney who continues to inspire others to believe that resilience can rewrite any story.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

  • How Ken began his journey of overcoming paralysis after his spinal cord injury
  • The mental and emotional strength it took to rebuild his identity and self-worth
  • How family, friends, and mindset became essential to overcoming paralysis and reclaiming independence
  • The incredible path from rehabilitation to becoming the first quadriplegic to graduate from Cornell University
  • His continued pursuit of helping others through law, advocacy, and his memoir A Dream of Things That Never Were
  • Why positivity, gratitude, and perseverance are at the heart of overcoming paralysis and thriving after trauma

Ken’s story of overcoming paralysis is more than a tale of survival — it’s a powerful reminder that the human spirit can turn tragedy into triumph. Through resilience, hope, and purpose, he proves that even when life changes in an instant, we still have the power to overcome.

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Hello and welcome to Overcome a Mental Health podcast. I am your host, Travis White, and this is a place where you can share your mental health stories and the challenges that you have had to overcome. I am very excited for tonight's guest. We are speaking with Ken Cunken. Ken is the author of A Dream of Things That Never Were, The Ken Cunken Story. And welcome to the show, Ken. Thank you, Travis. Thank you for having me as your guest. The pleasure is all mine. And I'm just going to turn the time right over to you to tell us about your journey. Let's jump right into it. Okay, well I think the best place to start would be to take your listeners back to 1970. Because at that time, I was a fairly typical 20-year-old college student at Cornell University. I mean, there was nothing different about me than there appeared to be about any other student. I worked hard in school and I loved sports. I was a member of a fraternity and I had a lot of good friends. And like most 20-year-olds, I dreamed of leading a useful, productive, rewarding and happy life. But my life changed dramatically on October 31st, 1970. On that day, I broke my neck and severely damaged my spinal cord, making a tackle on a kickoff in a lightweight football game against Columbia University. And in an instant, I lost all movement below my shoulders And I lost virtually all sensation just a couple inches below my shoulders. So I have almost no sensation to the most of my body. I now, after a lengthy period of hospitalization and rehabilitation, can move my left arm a bit, although I can't move my fingers or my wrist. And on the right side of my body, I can just shrug my shoulder a bit. So I spent the next nine months and 20 days in various hospitals and rehabilitation centers. And just Travis, if I might add, at the time I was beginning my junior year at Cornell University studying engineering at one of the most prestigious engineering colleges in the country. While I was in the rehab center, I got ahold of a pamphlet that the rehab Institute put out and they talked a bit about what somebody in my condition, somebody with a spinal cord injury, who was hurt between the fourth and fifth cervicals of the neck, may eventually be able to do work-wise. And the only thing I saw in that book for somebody injured to my extent would be to someday sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone. And I was devastated by that. Here I had a physical injury, not an intellectual disability, nothing to affect my emotional state. And suddenly the best the medical professionals seem to think that I would ever be able to do would be to sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone. And I was devastated. Well, I'm sure you were, but look, you know, and your academic background is excellent. you, the one thing that I can pick out is you proved that medical professional, those medical professionals completely wrong and went above and beyond. And I take a lot of pride in that accomplishment. Oh, you deserve to take a lot of pride. would too. I love it. thinking back to your accident, what was going through your mind on those early days, those early days after the accident? Like, where was your headspace to be exact? You know, it was incredibly frustrating. At that time, not many people knew a lot about spinal cord injuries, at least in the public's perspective. I mean, this was about 20 years before Christopher Reeve was injured. Now Christopher Reeve was a tremendous spokesman for people with disabilities and particularly people with spinal cord injuries. And he shed a lot of awareness on the topic. But at the time, not many lay people knew much about spinal cord injuries. I certainly didn't. And the medical professionals seemed reluctant to tell me more about my condition. They seemed to be hesitant to answer any of my questions or to really let me know what was going on. And it was incredibly frustrating. And here I was, I lost virtually all movement through my body and yet my mind was still intact. And I became incredibly depressed. And quite frankly, if I had the option, I probably would have chosen to have lost my mind and not had to go through experiencing what it was like to be facing this devastating illness, knowing that I may never be able to move again and basically just, you know, be relying on other people's help and in essence, only having my head attacked and the rest of my body essentially dead. Yeah, and that's, I could speak to a little bit, not near as much as what you would be going through. But when you have to start becoming dependent on other people in honestly any sort of way, it's very difficult thing to go through. It was incredibly difficult. In fact, it's still difficult more than 50 years later. But, you know, I was very fortunate that I had a very supportive family and a group of friends who basically were by my side the whole time and encouraged me to keep going. But just so you and your listeners know, before my injury, I basically thought of myself as a very active, physical person. I mean, sports were seem to be everything in my life. And if I was asked to describe myself, I always would have talked about what I was doing physically first before I would say, and by the way, I was also a pretty decent student as well. That seemed to come last in my thinking. Now here I was, everything in my life had changed and I had to depend more on my intellectual ability and totally try to compensate. for the lack of any physical movement. That's great. And I love that you have the support system to help you out and to help push you forward. How did your identity as a young athlete shape your response to the paralysis? Well, you know, as an athlete, I always tried to remain motivated to excel in my performance, to push myself to do and achieve more and never be satisfied with the status quo. And I was an individual who was smaller than many of the athletes I was competing against. So I think that pushed me even harder to be motivated to try and accomplished things that think most people thought I wouldn't accomplish. And I worked hard both before and after my injury to be very motivated, to do as much as I could. And following my injury, I worked hard not to let that stop me from remaining motivated. So that was quite an effort, not only on my part, but on my family's part to help encourage me not to give up. and to still try to do my best. Yeah, this is great. I love your resilience that you've built up. And it just seems like you're pretty much ready for any challenge that comes. it's been that lifetime of overcoming that has really pushed you through. And I love it. And I'm curious though, back in the 70s when you went back to Cornell, I'm guessing that the accessibility was completely different than it is now. What did college look like back in those days? Okay, well, I was injured in 1970. I went back to school in 1971 and there was a steep learning curve to getting adjusted to what architectural barriers really meant for somebody in my condition. I mean, I was injured about 20 years before the Americans with Disabilities Act took effect. Now that act, you know, required educational facilities and other public facilities to be made more accessible, particularly to people who use wheelchairs. So this was 20 years before that act. So Cornell was particularly inaccessible. It's on a very hilly terrain in upstate Ithaca, New York, and virtually every one of its buildings had steps in front of it in 1971. And there was not one ramp or curb cut on the entire campus. So just to tell you a little bit more, one of the classes that I was taking was located in a building that had 16 steps in front of it. And my dorm room was in a building that had 10 steps just to get in. On my first day of classes, I had to be either pulled up or bounced down close to 100 steps just to attend my first day. That's crazy. I can't imagine having to go through that. It really was crazy. And I remember getting back after my first day, had my personal care attendant lay me down in bed. And I remember that lying there staring at the ceiling, thinking, what was I thinking making this decision to go back to Cornell so soon after my accident and getting out of the hospital. I had only been out of the rehab center for 11 days before I went back to school. And I was still trying to adjust to my new physical condition, let alone now facing all the physical obstacles and pursuing a very difficult major. I went back studying in industrial engineering still and I remember lying there thinking I have no plan B. I didn't know what else I was going to do if I didn't make this work. So I tried especially hard to make a success out of my decision and I was fortunate that with a lot of help from my attendance. classmates, fraternity brothers, teammates, you know, on the sport I was injured playing, as well as my family and friends. I was able to complete my junior and senior year in engineering during those next two years. And I became the first quadriplegic to ever graduate from Cornell University. And that was in 1973. That's really cool. And what would you say is like motivated you to keep pushing forward academically? Okay, well, it's an interesting way that you put it to remain motivated to do that. I want to make it clear before my injury, I was also very motivated. I mean, you don't go to Cornell, study engineering and play a sport at the same time and not be extremely motivated. But to remain motivated was really difficult. And I credit my family and friends for constantly pushing me and encouraging me. to basically say, you know, they'll act as my arms and legs if need be to make sure I could still do everything I wanted to do with my life. And it got to the point where I felt I'd be letting them down if I didn't work especially hard and make the most of what they were allowing me to do, going back to Cornell and trying to lead a useful and productive life. And I credit them with helping me remain motivated. It's really cool. And I've said this before, but I think it's really wonderful that you had such a bunch of people in your corner that were willing to help you out. And you mentioned before that you earned multiple degrees. What other degrees did you get? Okay, well, while I graduated with a degree in engineering, it was clear to me that back in 1973, industrial engineering was not a very viable field for me. This was well before the age of laptop computers. So I saw it was very difficult for me to function as an engineer. And I was fortunate that I had a psychology professor who I had taken psychology as an elective by the name of Dr. James Moss, who unfortunately died just recently. I unfortunately heard he died recently. I mean, this was more than 50 years ago that I had him as my professor. And he thought pursuing a career in psychology and becoming a counselor would be a good field for me because I still had my speaking ability. You know, while I couldn't physically move, I could still speak with to to and with people. So he encouraged me to pursue a career in counseling. And I did that. I remained at Cornell. and I earned a Master of Arts degree where I majored in counseling and student personnel administration. And I became the first quadriplegic to earn a graduate degree from Cornell as well. And then they increased my counseling credentials. I went to Columbia University, which happened to be the school I was injured playing against, and I earned my second master's degree. This one a master's of education where I majored in psychological counseling and rehabilitation. And I decided to look for a job in the rehabilitation counseling field. And here I had Travis, now I had two degrees from Cornell, one from Columbia, three prestigious Ivy league degrees, two master's degrees, and no one would hire me. I looked for a job for a year and I sent out more than 200 resumes. I was even turned down off to volunteer my services, Travis. Everyone back in the mid 70s thought I did I was just too disabled to work and here think about it I did everything I could to rehabilitate myself rehabilitate myself make something of my life and No one would even give me that chance for more than a year Finally, I found one organization willing to give me that opportunity and that organization was abilities incorporated which was part of what was then called the Human Resources Center. It's now called the Viscardi Center after its founder, Dr. Henry Viscardi Jr. They're located in Albertson, Long Island, and they hired me to work as a vocational rehabilitation counselor for other individuals who had severe physical disabilities. And for that opportunity, I'll always be grateful. And that changed my life. Yeah, it's too bad that it takes so many rejections to find that one, but in the end, to me, almost sounds like, and maybe this is just me thinking out loud here that, how to put this, it was, to me, it almost seems like it could have been the universe calling to you and in a way. You know, when I was hired there, it was six and a half years after my spinal cord injury. And during those six and a half years, I was the recipient of so much physical help from so many different individuals. And I felt terrible about constantly being receiving help and not being able to give back in any way, help to others. And now for the first time, working at the Viscardi Center as vocational rehabilitation counselor, I was in a position where I could help others. And what a tremendous feeling that was and remains today as, you know, the one specific step that totally changed my life. And it increased my self-esteem, my feelings of self-worth, my self-confidence, and just brightened my day and made me feel so much better. about my situation and what I was able to do and the fact that I saw that now I could help others changed my whole perspective on what was taking place around me. That's so cool. love to see, I should say not see, but I love to hear about just those things that you had to overcome and the barriers that you had to move past to pretty much, yeah, go ahead. that while I was working as a counselor to other individuals who had severe physical disabilities, I was actually more severely limited physically than all of the people I was counseling. And as a result, I feel that it was helping motivate the people I was counseling to see that if with my disability, I could still go out, complete my education. and work at a very responsible position, I think it encouraged others to try and do the same. And that made me feel better as well about what I was trying to achieve and hopefully was achieving in that job. Fantastic. It's, oh, I love talking about this stuff. Absolutely love it. And what, can kind of go back to just the journey and your recovery? What role did mindset play in that, in your journey and recovery and accomplishment? Well, there are many things that went into my recovery when you talk about mindset. And for one, what I'd like to talk about is the effect people's expectations have on you as a person. You know, it seemed that there was such limited expectations for what I would ever be able to do that I was fortunate that my family kept me motivated to do more than what the medical professionals Seem to be expecting of me. I mean many of the People that I met in a rehab facility who had been hurt far longer than I had been Didn't seem to be doing much with their lives And I believe a lot of that was attributed to the fact that they weren't encouraged or expected to do more or something productive As for me, I thought there was more that I could do than just sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone. And thanks to a vocational counselor at the Rusk Institute by the name of Joyce Mesh, she encouraged me to go back to school and continue my education. And with that encouragement, I decided to do that. And I went back to school, completed my degree, and then my master's degrees, and felt that there should still be a lot somebody with a disability could do. But back in the 70s, The expectations for somebody with a disability were so limited that it wasn't just the physical obstacles I was dealing with, it was the attitudinal obstacles. You know, convincing somebody to just give me a chance to show what I could do was incredibly difficult. And while it's gotten a lot better over the years, it's still an issue for many people with disabilities, convincing an employer to just give them the opportunity. to work and show people what somebody with a disability can still do. And I think once the employer does that, they see that people with disabilities are some of the hardest working, most dedicated, motivating, and loyal employees that an employer can ever hope to find. Very true. And I'm glad to hear that over the years it's getting better, but what would you say are some of the things that society could even do to improve employment for people with disabilities now? Well, one of the things would be taking away the disincentives for going back to work. And by that, I mean that there are many people that are dependent on public benefits, such as Medicaid, to allow them to have the resources to pay for a personal care aid or transportation to get to and from a job to enable them to go back to work. or even start work for the first time. And one of the disincentives is if you go to work and start earning money, you may lose your Medicaid benefits and lose the attendant care that you're dependent on. And if that could be changed so that people were not fearful of losing those benefits, I think that would encourage more people with disabilities, one, to go to work, and two, the more employers and other people saw individuals with disabilities out in public, whether it be because now transportation facilities have been made more accessible. I mean, now I could ride on most public buses or take a railroad, a train or a subway. That changes a lot of a person's ability to get to and from a job, but it also changes people's perceptions when they see people out in public. you know, public transportations, eating at restaurants, going to movie theaters or Broadway shows. You know, you're less afraid of somebody who looks different than you or acts different than you. And you become more accepting. It's more commonplace. And you don't think twice now about sitting next to somebody at a job who may have a disability, right? Or hiring somebody. who may go about performing certain tasks a little different than you might have done it. It makes a huge difference. So I think those are some of the things that can be done. Excellent. Really good stuff. And I can see exactly where it come from. You brought up all really good points. You said that you just mentioned too that you were talking to going back for another going back and getting more schooling. What other schooling did you do? Okay, well, I loved my job as a vocational rehabilitation counselor. As I indicated, that really changed my life. And the longer I worked there, my duties kept expanding and increasing. And one of my responsibilities was to speak before groups and organizations concerning affirmative action and non-discrimination for people with disabilities. And I often spoke before groups and organizations and following my talks, I would be asked questions. And while I would do my best to respond appropriately, I was always careful to caution the questioners. They should really consult with a lawyer about their concerns. And Travis, I guess it didn't take long before I started to think, you know, there's no reason why I couldn't become that lawyer. I had an older brother who was actually a lawyer at the time. His name is Stephen and he worked in criminal laws, defense attorney. And I'd watch him in court and I thought that was something I could do because it relied more on my speaking ability. And here speaking at these conferences, when I was recommending that people speak to a lawyer about their concerns, I thought I ought to learn more about the law. So I left my job and I went to Hofstra University School of Law and I became a lawyer. And after my second year of law school, through my brother's recommendation, I did an internship at the Nassau County District Attorney's Office. And not only did I love that experience, I found a new way that I could help people and serve the community as a whole. So after my third year of law, at the beginning of my third year of law school, I applied for a full-time position with the District Attorney's Office. And I was very fortunate that the District Attorney at the time, A fellow by the name of Dennis Dillon based his hiring decision on my abilities rather than my disability. And he hired me. And I might add, Travis, at that time, I didn't know of another quadriplegic who was a trial attorney or let alone an assistant district attorney. I mean, there may have been some, but I had never heard about it. And on Long Island, I know there weren't any at that time. But Dennis Dillon, as I said, based his hiring decision on my abilities rather than my disability. And he gave me that opportunity. And as a result, I'll always be grateful to him as well. And I worked at the district attorney's office for more than 40 years. Well, this is awesome. I love how you just set your mind to something. like, you know what? I can do that. All right, and not only did I do it, I was promoted a number of times in my job where I eventually became a supervisor. I became one of our deputy bureau chiefs where I was then helping supervise more than 25 other assistant district attorneys. That's so cool. It seems like you've been through some demanding careers in your lifetime. How do you balance family with such demanding career? That's a really interesting question. And that started early on where I basically made up my mind shortly after my injury that I was going to do my best not to let my injury prevent me from doing all the other things that I wanted to do in my life had I not been injured. And one of those things was dating. And as you might expect, dating when you're a quadriplegic and trying to impress a woman, when you're almost totally paralyzed poses its own unique set of challenges. So that took me a while. In fact, I was almost 50 years old when I met the perfect woman for me. Her name is Anna. She's actually sitting to my right just off camera right now. And Anna is the most incredible woman that I ever met. And I must say that, you know, for years I never even considered the possibility that I would eventually fall in love with a woman and want to get married. But getting to know Anna and dating her changed my whole perspective on that as well. And in 2003, Anna and I were married. So it was such an incredible event. Travis had changed my life marrying this woman. And when I married Anna, she told me that she wanted to have my baby. And not just a baby, my baby. She said she wanted to see a little clunking running around our home. Now this really seemed impossible. But through Anna's encouragement, I decided we would pursue it. And we looked into various options, including in vitro fertilization. And I was amazed and shocked to find it still may be possible for someone in my condition to father a child. So we pursued in vitro fertilization and through what I would describe as the miracle of science, Anna became pregnant. And Travis on January 24th, 2005, I was present in the delivery room. Think about this. I was present in the delivery room when my wife, gave birth to triplets. We have three incredibly beautiful, healthy sons who are incredibly bright, incredibly motivated, who have just completed their sophomore years in three separate colleges at upstate New York. And they brighten my life every single day. That's incredible. And I can tell just by talking with you that you have a wonderful wife. I sure do. I am so fortunate that I have a wonderful family life that includes not just being married, but it includes fatherhood. We live in a wonderful ranch house here on Long Island. We're active in many different activities and I have a wonderful personal life as well as I had a wonderful professional life. I actually retired last year. And I look back at it. I think I was very fortunate with all I was able to do in my life. Thanks to the encouragement, support and help from an incredible group of family, friends and classmates, strangers, just about everybody I met have helped me every step of the way. And I'll always be grateful for that. I'm also proud to say that I am active and involved in the Viscardi Center, where they gave me that opportunity to work. now on their board of directors, and I'm thrilled to still be active with that organization. And to show you how involved my family was in helping me along the way, it's actually my cousin Roy Danis there that became so involved. He's actually chairman of the board of directors at the Viscardi Center right now. I love it all and over the years, so you have mentioned this before, you built up such a resilience in everything that you do. What lessons have you tried to pass on to your sons about resilience? Well, one, obviously, is never quit. Always strive to do the best you can do. But it's so important to try and maintain a positive attitude. Having a positive attitude about things helps you in so many ways. And it also encourages other people to want to be around you and want to help you if you need that further assistance. When they see how hard you're trying. to be productive and make something of your life. It makes everybody want to join in and help you and you know to do your best not to stress about things you cannot change. You know you need to think more positively about things you can still do and you know I think part of my message is while you cannot always control what happens to you, you can control how you react to what happens to And that makes a big difference. I would say that's a huge difference. And I can highly relate to what you just said, having a positive attitude. That's something that I've been working on changing myself over the past year with some stuff that I've been going through. Because my wife will tell everyone I'm pessimistic. It's just one of my characteristics. So I've had to overcome that, I think, more positively. And it does, it gets you a lot further in life to have that mindset. Travis, I can wake up every morning and decide, I going to have a bad day or a good day? And I always try and choose to have a good day, right? It makes such a difference in the kind of day I will have, because I know if I go about it with the right attitude, I will have a more positive experience and I will enjoy it more. Whatever has taken place that day, if I look on the bright side. awesome. keep, tell the listeners, build up that positive attitude and keep at it. So I'd love to dive into your book here. What inspired you to share your story in I Dream of Things That Never Were? Okay, well, let me tell you a little bit about how I came up with that title. While I was still a patient at the Rusk Institute, approximately six months after my injury, I was asked to testify before United States Senate Health Subcommittee chaired by Senator Edward Kennedy. And eight days after my testimony, Senator Kennedy sent me a glass paperweight in the mail that had an inscription on it. that the senator said his late brother Robert Kennedy liked very much. In fact, the inscription had a quotation on it that Robert Kennedy used to finish most of his talks by saying this quotation. And the quotation is, some men see things as they are and say why. I dream of things that never were and say why not. And that's where I got the title of my book, I Dream of Things That Never Were. And while I was still a patient in the rehab facility, a friend of my Aunt Lorraine's by the name of Albert Meglin came and visited me in the center and knew I was very depressed and knew that most people didn't know much about spinal cord injuries or what the rehabilitation process was like. And he encouraged me to write a book about what I was going through because he thought one, it would be informative to people about what it was like going through this process. And two, maybe it would help me deal with my disabilities to be able to express what I was going through. So he used to come and visit me at the center once a week and ask me to describe what it was like and what I was going through. And we kept that up for, you know, a few months until I returned to school. And then when I would be back on vacations, I would meet with him again and dictate some more. And then when I was on my own and, you know, no longer meeting with him, I tried even to do some typing by myself with the aid of braces and splints on my left arm. I could type just very, very slowly with the tip of a pencil sticking out from my split, you know, of a metal thing with an eraser at the end, typing real, real slowly. And I even type a little on my own, very slow and very tired. And then I put it down for years and pick it up and put it down. And then after I married my wonderful wife and we had our three children, she encouraged me to go back to the book and try and finish it. And with her help, she would sit by her laptop computer and I would dictate to her. And we actually finished the book more than 50 years after I had first started writing it. And I was fortunate that we were able to find a publisher. by the titled 12 Tables Press. Its owner, Steve Eric, agreed to publish my book. And it's actually on the shelf right behind me. I dream of things that never were. And I'm so glad that it's in print. And I get very positive comments from people who have read it. And if people want to know more about my book or about me, they can... go to my website which is kenkunkin.com and it tells them how they can order the book which is available through Amazon as well as other sources and it's available not only in a hardcover but in a Kindle version as well as in an audiobook which I narrated myself. So it's available in three different ways and I'm very pleased that it's now out in print. because I've been told that it's helped encourage others to do more with their lives. And when people face challenges and are trying to overcome adversity, it's nice to know that you're not alone, that other people have done this, faced these challenges and be able to know it's been done before. So you can do it. And I'm fortunate that it's now out there and people are able to read it. and or listen to it. And I'm so pleased that even my children have had the opportunity to read it. Well, I am very grateful that your wife pushed that forward and helped you get that out there. Me too. If you could give advice to someone facing what feels like an impossible setback, what would you tell them? Well, I tell them that sometimes you gotta take a step back and look at things from a different perspective. And while initially, and for quite a while, it may seem like you're facing overwhelming odds and that it's gonna be difficult to overcome them or even face them, there's still a lot everyone can do. You may have to go about finding a different way. to accomplish what you set your mind to and what your goals may be. But there's an awful lot everyone can still do. So if they work hard at it, never give up, remain determined and motivated, I think we all can succeed at what we want to do. Very, very well said. I have kind of just a general question for you that I ask pretty much everybody that comes on the podcast. And I just like to hear the responses that I get. What would you say is the biggest stigma within mental health? Well, the biggest stigma is that people are still fearful for people that are different than they are, whether it be with intellectual or emotional disability or a physical disability. And I think the fact that many people often have not come in personal contact with somebody who has this type of disability, they're fearful of the unknown because they don't know what to expect, you know, or They may be afraid of hurting somebody's feelings by saying the wrong thing. And I think it doesn't help that in today's environment, you have people in the administration who have negative opinions on diversity, equity and inclusion, DEI. And rather than encouraging people to be more accepting of people, right? To encourage in, you know, being in a diverse setting. with people that may be different than you, there are some people that seem to be discouraging that. And I don't think they fully appreciate all the benefits of being exposed to somebody who may be a little different than you. I mean, what is America all about? We have the great melting pot, right? Isn't that the way our country is described? And because we embrace people from different walks of life and people who may have different backgrounds. and be different than us in other ways. And I think once we embrace it, rather than push it away, they find that it benefits us in so many different ways. Let me just add, Travis, that in the district attorney's office, when you leave your job, they'd have you go through what they call an exit interview, where you tell the person personnel what you like best about the job and what you felt could be improved. And I was very happy to hear that on many occasions, some of my colleagues in the DA's office when they left told the person interviewing them that one of the best parts of their job was meeting, working with, and getting to know me. And I'm not saying that to boast or brag. I know they weren't specifically talking about Ken Cuncan. They were talking about meeting and getting to know someone who had a severe physical disability. Because unless they had a close relative with a disability, They rarely came in contact with someone who was so disabled in many ways. And for them, that was one of the best parts of their job. They found that not only did they learn a lot by having the experience of being exposed to somebody who was different than them physically, but it helped inspire and motivate them to do a better job. And I think the more people meet somebody with a disability, whether it be physical or intellectual or emotional, a mental health disability as well. And they see how hard people with different disabilities and different issues that they have to face work to overcome them. I think that inspires everyone to do more with what opportunities they've been given. And I think it's so important for people to embrace that opportunity. when you have it and not to discourage DEI, but to embrace and encourage it. I might add that I was fortunate that while I worked at the district attorney's office, the court officers decided to give me an award as the outstanding assistant district attorney one year. And they gave me that award because they were recognizing the effect it had on them and other court personnel. to have someone working alongside them who had a severe physical disability. And two years ago, the current district attorney, a woman by the name of Ann Donnelly, Ann Donnelly established an annual award in the district attorney's office. It's the only award they give on an annual basis that she named the Kenneth J. Comken Award. They named it after me to... recognized the outstanding assistant district attorney each year who best demonstrated the work ethic, had the respect of his or her colleagues and the loyalty and devotion to the office as the man in the wheelchair. Right? They wanted to recognize that and I'm so proud that they find this to be a positive to work with somebody who m has either the physical, intellectual, or emotional disability that helps others around them do more in their job or at a school setting than most people seem to know actually happens if they're not exposed to that person. That's so cool. I love hearing that you inspired so many people to think differently and push themselves. I remember back when I was in eighth grade, I got chosen to kind of be an aide for this sixth grader who was in a wheelchair for something he was born with. I can't exactly remember what it was. But I still to this day remember how he inspired me to be a better person as well. And one, I'm glad to hear it, but two, I'm not surprised to hear it. I think that's so many people's reaction. And to give more people the opportunity to come in contact in any way, shape or form with somebody who's different than they are is a good thing. And it helps so many people. Yeah, for sure. I really admire just your ability to inspire people and your resilience. I have kind of just two basic follow-up questions here. You mentioned your website. Is there anywhere else that people can find you? Well, the website is kenkunken.com. They could also email me at ken.kunken at gmail.com. They can go on my website. My wife has me on Facebook. And if they Google me, they'll see that there are a number of articles about either things that I have done or will be doing that. would be another way that they can keep in touch with. So thank you. And I can put all those links in show notes as well. And last thing is, is there anything that we have not discussed that you would like to bring up? Well, as I indicated before, it's so important to keep your expectations high for somebody who may be a little different than that, whether it be a physical disability, a mental or intellectual disability. And it's important to keep your expectations high because people's performance often rises and falls based upon what others expect of them. So it's so important to keep those expectations high for others as well as for yourself. But I also think that helping others is such an important aspect of everyone's lives. I can't emphasize enough how much it helped me when I was in a position where I could finally give back and help others. And others have said the same thing. It makes them feel better about themselves, better about their community and the people they come in contact with. And I think it inspires us all when they see that we work together as a group. to help other individuals so that we all achieve. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, You're an inspiration to me and to many others. I really admire your resilience and your ability to overcome and face any challenges that's throwing your direction. Thank you, Travis. I appreciate it. And I just would like to say one more time, I had a lot of help to be able to do what I've been able to do. For that, I'll always be grateful. But I think the people that have offered me that help will say that it has helped them as well to be in a position where they could give of themselves and help somebody else do more with their lives. It helps everyone when you do. Thanks again and thank you to the listeners. Thanks for joining in on this episode. If you like what you hear, please give us a rating and review on any platform. really helps us out. Also follow us on Instagram, YouTube and Facebook and share our stuff and like it and help us get the word out about this podcast is very helpful and we're grateful for you. you take the time out of your day to listen. Thanks again. Until next time.