Overcome - A Mental Health Podcast

Living with Bipolar II: Grace Ogren’s Journey of Recovery and Resilience

• Travis White | Mental Health Advocate • Episode 47

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In this powerful episode of Overcome: A Mental Health Podcast, host Travis White sits down with Grace Ogren, a clinical research specialist at Recovery.com, to explore what it’s really like to live with bipolar II disorder and navigate the long road to mental health recovery.

Grace opens up about her early struggles with depression, the 10-year path to an accurate diagnosis, and how finding the right treatment including mood stabilizers, ketamine therapy, and even a keto diet transformed her life. Together, they discuss the impact of misdiagnosis, the challenges of accessing care in rural areas, and why recovery requires both science and compassion.

This conversation offers hope to anyone battling depression, bipolar disorder, or burnout reminding us that healing is possible when we keep showing up, one day at a time.

What We Discuss

  • Grace’s personal journey from severe depression to accurate bipolar II diagnosis
  • The science behind bipolar treatment and how antidepressants can sometimes worsen symptoms
  • Her experience with ketamine therapy and why it didn’t work for everyone
  • How the keto diet affected her mental stability and mood
  • Overcoming stigma in small towns and improving rural mental health access
  • Finding support systems and rediscovering hope through family, writing, and recovery

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Hello and welcome to Overcome, a mental health podcast. I am your host, Travis White, and this is a place for you to share your mental health stories. I'm very excited for tonight's guest. I'm speaking with Grace Ogren. Grace is a clinical research specialist at recovery.com dedicated to advancing research initiatives and disseminating crucial findings in the field of mental health and recovery. Her work is fueled by a personal journey through recovery, which profoundly informs her approach to others understand and navigate their paths to healing. Grace, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. very excited to be here. Yeah, well, it's a pleasure to have you and I think we're gonna have a great conversation. And without wasting any time, I'm just gonna turn the time over to you to tell us about your journey. Yeah, I have struggled with depression mostly throughout my life started as a teenager and then just kind of progressively got much worse over the years. So I had an episode as a teenager and then more recently as a young adult, I had a severe episode. So it's been. that kind of feeling of it's over and then it comes back and navigating that it was very painful and difficult to have it come back and I went through intensive treatment recently and that is also where I was diagnosed with type 2 bipolar and I found that explained a lot like the the very cyclical nature of my depression. And so that was, I think, pretty major in getting me on the right medication. Whereas before I was mostly on antidepressants, but with bipolar, it's mood stabilizers that are important. And antidepressants can even make it worse in cases. I think. finding that out was really huge for me and that was a big part of my journey recently. And I have done ketamine therapy for depression and recently I've been doing the keto diet actually because there's been some studies published on that for bipolar. I just. tried it and I think it's been helping so I feel like I've tried a lot. I've been to kind of all the levels of treatment that there are and yeah we're into a lot. Yeah, it's have you with you know since you've been diagnosed with bipolar with the medication they have you on have you felt like that's helped you out a lot compared to what you were on before? Yes, yeah, it was tricky again, you probably know, getting the dose right. So it took a while to start feeling the positive effects and I did get some rough side effects, but now that it's been figured out, I do feel a pretty big, like a settling feeling is how I would describe it. Just more leveled out. Like with bipolar 2, I never had mania. was hypomania. And for me, that was a very minor part of my experience with it. was the depression that was so bad and so frequent. Those major, major episodes were frequent. getting that, it gives me a sense of confidence though to know that. there are these medications that can help. Like that's maybe why they weren't working before, because I wasn't on the right ones. Yeah. And I feel like diet can also play a big role into all this. that's one thing that I don't think that everybody like realizes or relates diet back to mental health. Yeah, and with bipolar too specifically, it's misdiagnosed as depression usually. And it can take, I think the average is like 10 years to get an accurate diagnosis. And that's when you can start treating it like type two bipolar. And that's, yeah, much different than how you treat depression medication-wise. it is, and then to know mentally that That's what it is. That's, think, huge too, because before I was like, I don't know if depression really makes sense. Like it feels, it didn't feel right. And to know what it really is, I think that it demystifies it in a sense and removes some of the fear of like what is happening and why. But when you know what it is, for me, that's, it's easier to just understand it and have less fear. Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like getting diagnosed with something, it's like one of those things where you're almost, well, do I want to be diagnosed? Because it's like, you know what I mean? It was kind of like, ah, dang, but also a relief. Yeah, it's a complicated. Uh huh. Yeah, like I want to know what it is, but I don't want to have it. Yeah. Can you? Are there any pivotal moments in your life that you can think of that shaped your mental health story? yeah, I moved when I was like almost 13 out of state and we were living in a very, very rural area. And I think that contributed heavily to like a sense of loneliness, like social disconnect, not having just human connection. were in a very, very small town where it was like everyone. knew each other already and we were kind of outsiders. And so there was that. And then there also just was not access to mental health care. Like when I needed it, there was, I think, like two therapists or one and months on the waiting list. And there's just, yeah, there was nothing available. So I feel like that contributed and just the stigma in these. rural areas too where it's not just stuff like this isn't really known as much and it's like you don't get mental health treatment you're just fine so it was kind of like overcoming that and just the true lack of availability like there's there's really just nothing and yeah Yeah, I grew up in a small town so can relate to the side of where people from somewhere else move in. And at first it's kind of like, well, who are these people? Because you're right, everybody knows everybody. And so I could understand how that could be tough. Yeah, yeah. And so you've been through all sorts of different types of treatment from medications to ketamine therapy. How did each of these impact your path to recovery? Yeah, started, I'll start from the beginning, I guess when I started medications, I was I think 14 and it was for panic attacks and like bad anxiety. I was getting those at school and it was becoming pretty unmanageable. that I think it was pro-panel was my first and from there, like the depression got worse. So then it was trying one antidepressant and we'd give it like two months and then move on to the next. And it was, it slowly reached the point where they were, it felt like just throwing everything at me and seeing what might work. And just this kind of frantic effort to get something to work and. Like I, right now I wish I wasn't on so much when I was so young, like 15, 16. I was on pretty a lot of things and high doses of things. And I had a lot of side effects usually, and I still do to this day. So medications are just tricky for me in general. And I think that's partially why I was interested in ketamine treatment. which I did like a year and a half ago, But that's all those negative reactions that I had to meds and just the fact that it felt like they weren't working antidepressants. And I think that's because it was not the right class of medication. We just always, I always hear these stories. I was lucky with like taking, usually taking like very low doses of stuff, but, and I always hear these stories of uh people having to go through medication after medication. And I really feel for you because I somehow lucked out, but I'm right there with you with the side effects. It's like every, I have a seizure disorder and every medication they put me on, I had really bad side effects. So now I try to stay away from certain types or classes of medication because I'm so afraid of what it's going to do to me. Yeah, they can do some really bad stuff and just even the black box warning. It felt very strange to be like, this is either going to help or make it all worse. And it's like, there's something in between. m gonna help or destroy your life. You get to choose, right? Yeah. Yeah. I was on a, once I was on a high dosage of anti-seizure medication because I was having so many. So the, the doctor was like, well, we need to get those seizures to stop. And I actually started hallucinating and I had never hallucinated before in my life at all. So it was, it was, it was really scary. And then I told him and he said, Well, if you're hallucinating, you need to go see a psychiatrist. And I went and saw a psychiatrist and she's like, no, you're hallucinating because of the pills. So after that I tapered off and it never happened. So it was pretty crazy. Yeah. For somebody out there that's struggling kind of with a deep dark depression today, what? What would say to them? What would you say to be the first steps to get moving and to get past or overcome this hurdle? I think it's, I would feel so overwhelmed. Like I have my whole life ahead of me to bear this. And so what I would say is like, you literally just get through the day, like just, and how much of a like lift that is, I think people can underestimate like how. much of a struggle that is when you are in a really dark place and it's like thinking about the future can make it so much worse and because you think, I've got I can't even take one more day like this. Like, how can I look at my life months or years down the line and there's no guarantee that it'll get better. It's kind of like just literally get through every second, you know, take it. second by second and that just helped me not feel as like I guess paralyzed in a way by the future and hopeless. It was like lock in for you know the next few seconds and then make it through the next and like if you don't if you don't give up it will it will get better and that's I feel more confident in saying that because I have had it come back so often. You've been in the darkest, deepest part of the tunnel. Yeah, very much so. I actually spoke with somebody last night that I mentioned that like, you know, sometimes I take two steps forward and then I feel like I take five steps back in that same day. And he said the most important thing to remember is at least you took two steps forward. I guess this small wins. uh-huh, like it, it just truly make it through. That's your responsibility. And don't, don't tell yourself to do more, expect more. Like that's when it's that dark and bad, that's the hardest thing you can do is keep going. So. Yeah, I totally, totally agree. What? With your, So when you actually did ketamine therapy, could you see, like, a difference that it made? Like... I've never tried it. I've heard stories about it. Like, my friends have... I have had some friends that have tried it and said, oh, this is great, but, like... I don't know. I've heard of, like, a mix of... a mix of stuff, so... For me, it did not do much. I think overall it was not harmful, but I didn't notice the stuff I was seeing in the research and I learned about it through my job. which was a website that has addiction to mental health treatment, helps you find that. And just, was researching some of the centers on the website and I had never heard of ketamine treatment or it was, think, spratova, spratova is what I read about. And then I read more about like IV ketamine treatment and... just realizing it was a possibility was really cool. And then I kind of tucked it aside, I guess. then a few, like a year and a half ago when things started getting bad again, I was like, maybe I should try ketamine. I understood how it worked because I needed to for my job. And it just sounded really, really. promising and just the lack of side effects because I knew I didn't tolerate anti-depressants well. So that is what led me to it. And what I've seen is there's like a 30 % chance that people will not have any positive reaction to it. But most people, most accounts of people's experiences, it was all very positive. I went in with a lot of hope because things were really, really bad at that point. And it took, it's very expensive for one. It's not covered by insurance. And if you're getting infusions, the standard package of what you do is six sessions. they're each like the place I want is they're each almost $400. So it's. thousands to do the full session and then you're supposed to get maintenance doses as well. So I guess all I have to say is I was very desperate and the cost it was like my parents helped out and I just was like if this works like that would be life changing in life saving and yeah I went in with a lot of hope. and I did the IV infusion. There's two types of that where you either get a bolus, I think they call it, or it's just dripped in gradually. The first place I went, they did it with a bolus, which means it just takes effect quicker and it can be more intense. uh So that's, I didn't know anything about that before I started, but yeah, I did the full six sessions and it was an experience. But yeah, at the end I just was like, I don't think that made it worse, but didn't do what I had seen. And you said there's no, like, was no after effects for you, like side effects from doing it. No, yeah, the actual like the day of you're pretty much done with your day when you're when it's over like I Your vision is blurry and you're kind of really tired and dizzy and unsteady so they're like just sit down and like don't work or don't do anything and then it's even before the sessions they're like make sure you're very relaxed and not like watching anything stressful or engaging in something like emotional, because it can affect what you see when you're supposed to be hallucinating, like totally dissociated and hallucinating. And that did happen for me. the first time it was very scary. I didn't realize how important music is to the experience. I, if anything, if I suggest anything about ketamine therapy, it's make sure you have like nice music because I was listening to like I think rainforest sounds my first time and then I was seeing myself in a just a dark forest and it was really scary and then after that I did more like just classical music and I started seeing like everything I would see would be with the beat so it was like lights and pretty stuff so music is huge and then my second session they actually dosed me I think too high there was some issue with the dosing so there was that was kind of scary where it was they had issues with just waking me up because you're supposed to come out of it gradually but it was just too high of a dose so that that kind of made it scary yeah it was yeah to wake up to them they're shaking me in So for you, what does your really low, darkest moments look like? I think it's feeling... I'm thinking of two things, but they kind of coincide. It's such a complete disconnect from life that... I either I feel like a huge burden on people and then it kind of gets to the point where I just stop caring. And it's very strange. Like that's when I know it's really bad when I don't care about my family anymore. And when it reaches that point where I'm like, I truly, I don't care anymore. And... Like I don't even have the feeling of being a burden that definitely is maybe like one tier below that. And that is a sign for me that things are really bad. But it felt like for me there was then a level above that where I just kind of felt like I was dissociated in a way and just this really strange like empty. I don't care anymore. don't. care about, yeah, my family and even the guilt that I am thinking when I think of suicide, like that, it just starts to feel like you're in this glass box and everything is outside of it and it can't touch you or affect you anymore. And it just is like, I'm just done. That's to me, the bad, scary point is when I just am like... Shot. I'm done. I don't care about anything anymore and yeah. Yeah, that's putting it, as you said, like a glass box. really like kind of that, I guess, metaphor kind of thing that you used because it's a great way of explaining it. it's in those deep dark times, it's like really hard to explain to somebody too. It's like really hard to find the words because like I. mentioned before we start speaking and coming out of this rut and my wife's like, no, you got to explain it to me because I have a problem with dissociating. Like I'll get to the point where I wouldn't say like I have suicidal thoughts, but I wouldn't say I was like to the point where I would never do anything because I have like a deep down, I know that I have too much to live for. I have three young kids. Mm-hmm. amazing wife, like I have too much to live for. But it's like, my wife's like, you need to explain this. I was like, I can't, I can't explain it. She's like, well, what's going through your mind when you dissociate as a, well, I lose track of time. Like, I don't know. I'm so out of like such a out of body experience that I don't even know what I'm thinking. Yeah, yeah, that's huge too, because my parents would say the same thing, like, just tell me what you're thinking, tell me what's going on. It's like, I don't know, like, it's it's feels like just a void. And but somehow it's, it's bad. Like, there's this emptiness, but it's also, like malicious in a way. It's not pleasant. I feel like people might think, oh, it'd be it'd be nice to like not feel things, but when it gets to that point of disconnect or just you don't even know what you're feeling. Like that's kind of freaky, I think. Yeah, it's very true. it's like, you mentioned that people are saying like, it'd be nice to feel empty. It's like this empty feeling when you're depressed isn't, it's not a good place to be. Not at all. Yeah, it's, it's, that's kind of what I am. I feel like I'm looking to end is when I feel like that. It's like, I think that's where like, yeah, a lot of those slots can come from is like, if this is it, then I really don't care if I am here or not. So It makes, for me it was like the suicidal thoughts became more intense, like the more empty I felt. Yeah, that's happened to me for sure as well. I feel like everything you're saying, it's like ding ding ding ding. It's truly just relatable. Yeah, that's good and bad. Yeah. I get what you mean. What would you say though, what's been like the, what's, how am I, I it in my mind. As far as like recovery goes, what do you think has been the most important part of your, like what's helped you the most I should say? I think it's my family. I credit them for just being there, period. But then also, I always felt like they believed I could get better. I'm thinking of my parents. They always held hope when I was completely shot. I had nothing. Even though I would get to a point where that didn't matter to me and I didn't care, but in many moments I was like, I'm glad someone thinks I can get through this. And it gave me that very small feeling of like, well, maybe I can if they're so confident about it. just their constant support, was very, I think I'm very, very lucky to have. parents that are so supportive and they didn't grow up in a like a culture where mental health was normalized in a way. So I feel like they have really like tried to understand it and embrace it and do understand and just kind of they go out of their way. I feel like to be supportive and it's not. even necessarily what they did or said. was just that knowing they were there. was big for me. Yeah. Yeah, they had your back through the thick and thin. I think that's really important to have people like that your corner as you're struggling with mental health battles. Yeah, just having someone believe when you don't, I think that's very, can be very important. Yeah, I grew up in a place where it wasn't talked about. I didn't really know what anxiety and depression were until I started going through it. at first, when I started getting really depressed and really anxious, I think I was in denial. I think I was more like, that's not really happening to me. This isn't real. It's just, it's all crazy to me, but I'm happy that you have this part of parents. Yeah, me too. What? If you could go back to like when, you know. you know, your move happened and you started feeling these changes, the depression coming on and stuff. What would you say to your younger self, knowing what you know now? I think I would say that is worth it is yeah, what I would say, cause that's, I felt like the big question during that time and my more recent like very bad episode, was like, is what's the point? And like, I can keep getting through the day, but why bother? You know, it was like, I can't take it if it comes back. Like I, there's. I kind of felt this refusal to subject myself to the possibility of it coming back. And it was like, there anything that could make anything about life that could make all of this worth it, all this pain, just feeling the pain and getting through it? And it was like, just I never felt confident. And like I knew what you should say is like, yeah, it'll get better. You can find purpose in your pain, like I, once you reach the point of not caring, it's like, I needed, I would have liked to hear that it's worth it. And I think that would have been very encouraging to me. And it's something that I wrote a letter. in treatment to my future self. And that's pretty much the same message that I said was like, you just, you, you better get to the next day. And like, that's, that's what it takes. That's how it gets better. that, because when I'm depressed, I like lose all memories of being happy. And I've heard from a psychiatrist that that is what happens. He's like depressed people have really crap memories. And so that contributes to why it can feel like so endless. And that was why I wrote myself that letter, which is to say like, just that that's not true. And I am living proof right now as I'm writing in this that it's gotten better and... I think there's something about hearing that from yourself and not like social media or a magazine or anyone else, but from you who has experienced it and knows better than anyone else what it's like. I think that has been powerful and yeah, that's what I would say to my past self as well. Yeah, and I like that you mentioned that you, somebody with depression has a bad memory. Cause sometimes at work, when I'm in my dark moments, it's like, I'm an IT project manager. So there's lots of moving parts and pieces that I have to remember. And there's days where I'm like, I just don't even know what to do. Cause my, my only thought that moment is how do I get through the day? Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that is like, I ended up, had to take a leave of absence, I think starting in November. And that was part of why I was like, cannot function. Like my, feels like my brain is not working. can't do my job. And that was kind of its own separate thing from feeling depressed and suicidal. Like those were the issues, but the effects of depression, like it can be so. much more than you would think and so kind of all encompassing and you wouldn't think I feel like that something could be that powerful and just kind of be not visible. But there's there's so many like layers to it and sides of it and people experience it differently. That's absolutely kind of crazy that you took a leave of absence in November because I did too. Mine was for, so I've had, I mentioned earlier, to see, have a seizure disorder. My seizures came back really, really bad because they've, I've had them for since 2009. So I've had them for years, but they kind of died down to the point where I was, I'd have like one or two a year. and I just get migraines, so I wasn't like really taking anything for them. And all of a sudden I just had a cluster of them, spent a couple of days in the hospital. But every time I get, have a seizure, it's like my mental health, like it's like, well, here we are, here we are too. Like we're gonna add to this. So I took a leave absence to like around the same time to work on myself. And that's. what I had to focus on. took a lot of time this year and the end of last year to kind of like figure out who I am and what I have to do to get better. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, I'm glad that I did that because it for me it felt like like are you just being being a baby and like you're it's not that bad. But I had kind of that that switch go off where I was like this is it's kind of like do or die right now. And like I need to really take this seriously. really throw everything at it. And it's also living now that I live in a bigger city, there's actually resources. So I was like, I actually have options and I should try them. And so that's also what led me to Ketamine. It was like that it's actually here. I can do it. And then I was in a PHP program, partial hospitalization and I went to residential and it was just to have all of that nearby and actually accessible. That was huge. Yeah. And so I'm curious though, how long have you been doing the keto diet for? I started the end of March, so a months. And have you been able to tell any changes from that? I kind of hate to say it, but I have. And I only say that because it kind of sucks to not be able to eat like most food. But I feel like it's worth it every time. every time I feel annoyed with it, I'm like, well, I know what can happen. And I don't know for sure, you know, if that's exactly what's been helping, but. I did feel like once I started, I reached a new level of calm and the sense that the other shoe wasn't about to drop. It felt like that kept me very nervous and anxious and just like I could not engage with life or feel happy or anything because it was like, it's just, it's going to be gone tomorrow or it could be. just that alone is... takes your joy, I guess. And so with keto, I just I noticed it made me feel more like I felt like things could go wrong or something bad could happen and I'll still be okay. I'll still be it's not gonna start the cycle again. And when before it was like I just kind of living in fear of what is going to trigger it next and like what Maybe I'll just wake up and nothing will trigger it, but I'll still feel bad. So it's not, I don't see it as a cure by any means, but I think if it helps even like 1 % that that's like worth it for me because it can just get so bad. Yeah, but I'm very, I was very, very hesitant to start it and I. uh avoided it for months because I didn't, was like, life is already hard and I have to cut out carbs and sugar. Yeah, yeah. So I did wait until I was doing better. Not like 100%, but was enough better to where I could stomach the idea of keto. Yeah, my mother-in-law is on the keto diet and she like, so I've, so I, we go to her house and eat dinner almost every Sunday. And so I, when I go there, I call it the keto cleanse. But that's, had to, I am not on the keto diet, but I, that's one thing that I had to do at end of last year was I kind of cut back on sugars and I eat less like I eat more like gluten-free. Overall, I just eat more healthy. Because I actually, the types of seizures I got diagnosed with this last round are non-epileptic. So they, they say that they make them sound like you're, they're all just, they're called, let's see, PNES, what was it? Psychogenic non-epileptic seizures. And they used to call them something else. So it makes you almost feel like they're calling you crazy for having these seizures because they don't, they're not the same. Like they're still seizure, but they're not classified the same as once it's like released from your brain. So no medication works for them. So I actually went to like a more, what do you call it? Natural doctor and not like a, and they said, change your diet. And so I did, and I actually started seeing the the seizures improve and I started seeing my moods change and like I was like, so I'm feeling more naturally happy and I'm not seeing the seizure stuff. so I. big part of it for me too, is it feels natural. And I get, necessarily that medications felt artificial, but there's something just very slightly different about how I feel now. Yeah. So I commend you for finding something like that and sticking with it. changing your dye is not really easy to do. no. Yeah. And I, I kind of hesitate even to tell people I recommend it because like it is huge and you don't want to make like I really got almost mad when people like my parents do keto. And so they're like, just do it, it won't hurt. And like, I don't want to have to do keto to feel better. Like, don't. But then I just was like, I'll just try it and you do it just. And I'm glad that I tried it, it, yeah. What would you say was like the hardest food to give up? oh I always miss, I never even ate them much, but like crumble cookies. I've had them like three times in my life. And then that's always what I think of when I want something like that and donuts and then coffee too. can't, I used to get a lot of coffee with like honey or syrups in it. And now I can't, you can't have the fun coffee drinks, but yeah. was, I was a huge like soda drinker and that's one thing I did was like completely stop drinking soda. And I drink what's called Zevia. So it's like a kind of helps you get rid of that. I guess the soda is a vice and it's, it has a different type of sugar in it. They don't classify it as a soda. So I'll drink that, but it's. not the same tasting. not, doesn't compare to an ice cold Coke. All right. So. just have a honestly a few more questions here. Just because I'm, you just make me curious about. lot of things because I think in ways like our story actually is similar in ways but not if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what do you think they could change as far as like the mental, well, let me rephrase that. What do think they could change in rural areas to like help improve mental health? I think just making sure people know it's there because there's even like the lack of physical treatment options. that's, you can't do much about that. Even if you tell people it's there, but they can't get in like that. It's not super helpful, but what I've learned at my job at recovery.com, it's like there's just seeing the amount of options when I started working there, it was. It was really like bittersweet. Like there's so much out there and I just felt like burned that I didn't know that. Like there's virtual programs and there's places just for kids who are depressed. like finding that out was really like, it was hard to know that that was out there. And when we would have done like anything, you know, when you're at that point and then. It feels even more hopeless when you think there's nothing out there. So I feel like making people very aware of what is out there. you can, if it's at a bad point, you can travel if you need to. can, but mainly like virtual, there's virtual either just therapy or like intensive outpatient partial hospitalization like that can be done virtually and. I personally, I like in-person better for that type of stuff, but just it's something, you know, and it's, if it's either that or sitting by yourself and thinking no one out there cares or there is nothing, I think anything is better than that. just, the knowledge, there is someone, people do care, people do try to treat this and. Yeah, you're not alone. And I think that finding out people care enough to treat it is what helped me feel not. Yeah, I, when I, back when I was in my early 20s, I worked at a residential treatment center for teenagers. And I can tell you that I can't speak for all the people that work there, but the majority of the people that work there really care about the teenagers that come in. Like it's like, otherwise you can't do that job. Yeah. Yeah. And so what outlets do you do or do you have to keep you grounded? I think two main buckets, I write and that is my, I guess that would be my passion. And that was something that really helped me get through the depression. Like I don't feel like it saved me or anything like that, but it was just something that didn't get taken, it felt like. I lost interest, know, it's one of the loss of interest or pleasure in daily things you once enjoyed like that. I lost like I used to paint and draw and that all just kind of like flatlined. I. Writing just stayed and that was a big factor in why I wanted to get better is I want to finish my book. And so I I write books for young adults. kids my age when I was doing really bad that just to have some, I used books as like an escape and seeing characters go through something worse than what I was wanting. They're like, that's what I, that's what inspired me to write and to. creative story and a character who was going through something worse, it felt like to me. And then I'd say, I'm going to see how she does this. And it's just, it's been like an outlet ever since. And it's been a really big, really big part of my life and how I process, because I've never really connected with journaling, but I can use what has happened and what I have felt. in fiction writing and that's been yeah kind of life-changing. That's really, really cool. And would you say that you're like doing that type of creative work? Would you say that's more of an escape as well? Or does it actually help you process like the difficult experiences? I think it's a really good mix of both, because I do seek it out when I'm not doing well, but then there's also the, when I'm really not doing well, I don't want to do it. And then there's a medium, and when I'm in that spot, I feel like when I do the most processing work and just... It can be very subconscious too, but I'm like, I'm seeing these characters go through things that I can't even imagine happening to me. And, or they make really big mistakes. They, they screw things up really bad and things just seem like they're, they're over. And it can just be very, yeah, like self subconsciously helping me process, I think a lot. is putting characters in bad situations basically and then getting them through it. That's really, really cool. I, I've thought about writing books, but I'm like, I don't, don't have any of me to sit down and do it. And I don't think I have that type of an imagination anymore. Yeah, they take a long time. I'm just about finished with one, but it's taking me a long time. Well, I'm here in your corner and hoping that you get all done and edited and whatever needs to be done to get it out there. Thank you. Thanks. So if you could just, yeah, if you could make, sorry, like, is my train of thought here? If you could make one change to the mental health system tomorrow, what would it be? think it would be finding some way to take care of people who are in the area between needing treatment and getting it. In my experience, it took me a week of calling and leaving voicemails and emails just to get a treatment center to call me back. So I get kind of annoyed with the saying of just ask for help. And it's like, help? didn't call me back. There's this fight you have to do. And I feel like that people don't know that. And once you're in that situation, it's so discouraging. It's like, I'm trying to get treatment and they don't seem to care. And that's their job. So it would have what I would like is to be like, we don't have a space for you right now, but here's what you can do or here's even just to acknowledge like sorry, or we'll be we're trying to get you in and like, you know, this is coming to all this hope like, there's just this kind of like hands off like, well, we can't get you in good luck. That is very frustrating to me and very dangerous. well, extremely dangerous, like, because most of the people that are calling these centers and trying to get in there are not in a good spot. And just to, like, if they could leave the person with like a little bit of light and hope to be like, okay, well, maybe in a week they can have something like. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's just they kind of leave you with, well, like go to the ER if it gets worse. And like, that's, you know, but some something for the people who are waiting is what and I don't know exactly what that is. Other than communication from admissions staff of what's going on, because it can feel. very much like you're in the dark and it's just kind of, if you get lucky and they take you, that's when it will work. then if you're, everything else is just out of your hands and it feels like they're kind of holding back information or, yeah. So maybe overall, I would say just better communication. Yeah. sense. So this is a question that I ask all my guests just because I like to hear the different responses I get. It's a pretty generalized question but what do you you touch base on a little bit what do feel is the biggest stigma within like the men when it comes to mental health? I feel like it's kind of the way that they think it puts people in a box. Especially for me with bipolar, always say it's type two. Because then it's like, you're bipolar. You're crazy. it's like, that's all you are is your diagnosis. Just the language even that I have used, like I am depressed, am bipolar. Like that's the language that I think perpetuates the, maybe not even like judgment on people's part, but just like not being able to see you beyond the diagnosis. And that for me makes it feel like, maybe I'm not anything beyond this, but. I feel like that's very not true. can be so many things and your diagnosis is just part of it. It doesn't like doom you to anything or it's not a cage. Yeah, I agree. think that's a huge one. I like how you said that because it's like you just because you're diagnosed with something that doesn't make you that thing. Like you're still you're still you. You're still grace. You're still this creative writer. You're still, you know, the person that works at recovery.com. Like the bipolar part is just something that adds to you. Like. Yeah, it's just a facet. people experience each diagnosis so differently too. Like there's symptoms that are the same across, but the way that people experience them is like, so to assume like, you must be this way because you're that, like that can be very frustrating. It's like you have this mainstream knowledge of depression or bipolar anxiety and that. not realizing how different it can look on people. I think education is what's a lack of education is what's contributing to that. Yeah, I think education is like crucial. It's kind of goes back to so I feel like I'm either really anxious or like really depressed at times. There's like no in between. So when I was like dealing with really high anxiety, my wife's like, you know, you need to tell me this. You need to explain this. I was like, I can't like, I don't know how. And I mean, I would try to tell her all these things that she didn't understand it. And this last year, she's actually experienced some anxiety. And so she's like, you know what? You're right. I finally understand it. I was like, you know, like it's, laugh about it now. It's not that I want her to be anxious, but it's like where she got to the point where she said, I finally understand what you were going through. It like hit something to me. And I'm like, I think some people, kind of treat people that are diagnosed with certain things a certain way because they haven't been through it, whether it's with themselves or with a family member or loved one, whatever. And where, so where can people find you? I have a on recovery.com I write articles. So I have a few look in the there's a resource hub with articles on there and I am on LinkedIn and Instagram and grace j. O'grim on Instagram and I have a website just grace o'grim.com I'll make sure to add all those to the show notes here. And one last thing, we've covered quite a bit on the show today. Is there anything you'd like to discuss that we did not discuss? I don't think so. I feel like we covered all the the main things and the things that I feel like people don't know that need to be talked about. I feel like we had really good discussions on that. I will thank you so much for coming on and being vulnerable and having such a raw conversation. Yeah, thank you for hosting how you do and also being vulnerable. And I'm in your corner. hoping that you just keep above the water and push through all those dark times. Yeah, right back at you. Thank you. And it's nice to have someone on the show that I can relate to as much as I did with you, so. So thanks again for coming on. And thank you to all those listening. If you were inspired by what was said here, please pass it along. Follow us on Instagram and YouTube. It's where I do most of my work. share, push the share button, like button. And until next time, thanks again for listening.