Overcome - A Mental Health Podcast
Welcome to Overcome: A Mental Health Podcast — a space dedicated to mental health recovery through real, raw, and honest conversations. Each episode features powerful personal stories of resilience from people who have faced—and overcome—depression, anxiety, trauma, and more.
Whether you're on your own journey of overcoming depression and anxiety or supporting someone who is, this podcast offers hope, insight, and connection. Hosted by mental health advocate Travis White, Overcome is your weekly reminder that healing is possible and you are not alone.
Overcome - A Mental Health Podcast
From Masking to Mastery: Autism, Identity, and Leadership with Murphy Monroe
In this powerful episode of Overcome, Travis White sits down with Murphy Monroe, an autistic leader and disability-justice advocate, for a vulnerable conversation titled “From Masking to Mastery: Autism, Identity, and Leadership.” Murphy shares his lifelong journey through autism, sensory overload, identity, and the emotional weight of masking who he truly was.
From childhood confusion to the relief of late diagnosis, Murphy explains how embracing his neurodivergence shifted his life, his confidence, and his leadership style. This episode explores what “From Masking to Mastery: Autism, Identity, and Leadership” truly looks like when lived in real time with honesty, healing, and courage.
Murphy also breaks down the realities of sensory processing, the challenges of appearing “typical,” and why unmasking is essential for mental health. His transparency offers hope for anyone navigating autism, anxiety, or the fear of being misunderstood.
What We Discussed
- The meaning behind From Masking to Mastery: Autism, Identity, and Leadership
- Growing up autistic without answers
- Sensory overload and his lifelong battle with light sensitivity
- Early diagnoses (dysgraphia, echolalia, Asperger’s)
- Masking: the scripts, exhaustion, and identity loss
- The emotional impact of late autism diagnosis
- Why unmasking feels like freedom
- How autism shaped his leadership style
- Workplace accommodations that actually work
- The role of stillness, darkness, and float therapy in healing
- His feature in The New York Times
- Encouragement for kids and adults struggling with identity
- What he would tell his younger self today
Learn More About Murphy Monroe
Website:
https://murphymonroe.com
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Hello and welcome to Overcome a Mental Health Podcast. I am your host, Travis White. This is a place for you to talk about your mental health journey. Joining us today is Murphy Monroe, an autistic leader in disability justice and nonprofit management. Murphy is a commissioner for the city of Evanston, focusing on ADA compliance and access, and the executive director of an award-winning circus school and theater company. Welcome to the show, Murphy. Thanks Travis, I'm really glad to be here. Appreciate the open space you've created. Well, it's my pleasure to have you on. Without wasting any time, I'm just going to hand the microphone over to you and let you take us on your journey. Sure. Well, I mean, I'm married. I have a couple of kids, adult kids and a house full of pets. And I am a really different person. Maybe not different person, but I am embodied differently than I have been. And I've been growing into myself over the course of my life. I'm autistic and have always known since I was a young as I can remember. It was clear to me that there was something really fundamentally different about me than everyone else around me. It was just super clear to me that I was having an experience that was just fundamentally different, that I understood things in a way that were different. And also that everything coming at me, I was filtering in a way that I could just aware that other people weren't filtering in the same ways. I didn't know why I was different or how I was different. I just knew I had this big difference about me. And in my mind, it was a really big secret. I thought that... It might mean I had some kind of really bad mental health thing. This was in the 80s. And not a lot of awareness about things. And so in my mind, you know, maybe I'm schizophrenic or something like that. And whatever it is, I needed to keep it a secret. But it was a hard secret to keep because, you know, the way I often think about it now in hindsight is that Now maybe at elementary age, I could see one or two feet in front of me, or at least I had awareness of what was going on within only one or two feet in front of me. And if it wasn't in that space, I probably wasn't able to track it. And or wasn't maybe even aware it was happening. Everything to me was loud and quick. and I had to take it all in at once and just taking in the feeling of being in the room was so much that taking in what was happening three, four feet away was just not anything to what I'd experienced yet or I'd been able to do yet. So as I've grown into my autism and grown into myself and gotten better about managing myself and managing my life, I've expanded that amount of space that is out in front of me, know, to, you know, when I was in high school, it was three or four feet. And, you know, when I, you know, left high school and went to college, you know, maybe I got it to four feet. And, you know, when I entered the workforce and, you know, had big jobs early on for... largely because of the kind of brain that I have and the way that I think. And so I got to maybe five, six, seven feet out in front of me. And now here I am, a good dozen plus years from there. And I feel like a pretty wide view out into the world, not all at once. but I'm much more able to see out, to have a good sense of what's happening around me, to not be so impacted by everything that's coming at me and to be able to filter through it in a different kind of way. One of the things about this that's most, I think, maybe poignant or for me, most specific is light. So folks who are autistic have a spectrum of different ways that they're being impacted by their autism. And for many people, they are perhaps hyper sensitive to... uh input coming at them or in case some people are hyposensitive to input coming at them. In my case, I'm just extremely sensitive to sound and to light and to fluctuations in temperature, all sorts of things, but light in particular. And so just to give a sense, throughout my life, I have been overtaken by light. And so I reach a point where my eyes, my brain are no longer to process the light that's coming into me. And I can feel this happening and everything starts to slow down for me and it's slowing down. And as it's slowing down, I'm starting to think a little bit slower and my vision is starting to narrow a little bit. and I'm starting to have a hard time talking. I'm starting to stutter or have a hard time finding words to say. And then I'm having a hard time keeping my legs up. And I'm having a hard time standing. And before you know it, then I'm just on the ground. And my eyes have come all the way in closed. My voice has just stopped. I've stopped being able to speak or think of words. And I really have just been taken out, overcome by this light and sensory coming into me. This experience usually ends with me getting sick and then having some opportunity to start to come back from it. This happened to me regularly as a kid without any knowledge from my parents or anyone else what was happening to me. We didn't know it was light until I was older, until I became a teenager. And I didn't really learn how to manage the light in my life and the input of light onto me until I was really a grown adult and well into my career. And even now I'm still finding ways to improve. how I move about the world and how I interact with the world in order to make me as successful as possible and sort of to expand how far out I'm able to see at any one given time. And so you mentioned early on about kind of your childhood and you you thought you had all these different mental health problems. What did it look like when you were getting your diagnosis? What was that journey like? Yeah, so the first time I received any kind of diagnosis was as a teenager and I was told I had dysgraphia, which is a very, very common autistic trait. It's just that it's a hard time with handwriting and small motor skills in that way or even being able to interpret it. I also was told at the time that I had what's called echolalia. Echolalia is a version of Pallalia, but it's where you are constantly repeating your own self after you talk. So I would always speak words, and I would just repeat myself after I would say something, and without any awareness that I was doing this. And I was also told at the time that I had Asperger's. And Asperger's wasn't something that was very known at the time. ah Asperger's is no longer a term really used, it's just part of the autism spectrum. So that diagnosis came when I was a teenager and none of it really meant much to me. I think my parents had me start seeing a therapist and got me a tutor and that was more or less what I made of that. Later... When I had gotten out of college, was seeing a psychiatrist for a while and that psychiatrist one day just turned to me in the session and said, Hey Murphy, like, do you not know you're autistic? And I was like, what, what, what are you talking about? And I then just went and started doing a bunch of reading and connecting autism to Asperger's and getting familiar with Temple Grandin and I thought about it a lot and got involved in it. This was maybe about at the age of 25, 26, 27. And I joined a support group of other folks with autism. And I, for whatever reason, just rejected all of it. I just, in my mind, just made a decision that that's not me, that can't be me. Those aren't my people and I'm not going to be able to be this. And also, you know, at the time I was the, I was a really young director of admissions for a major private arts college. And I just thought there's no way that this can all be and this isn't me, this isn't who I am. And I just turned my back on it. And I immediately just started to do my best to convince the world that I wasn't. autistic and just really started doubling down on masking, doubling down on doing everything I could to convince everybody else around me that I wasn't autistic, that I was just like them. And it's a really hard thing to do. And it's something that's really common amongst folks who are neurodivergent and amongst all sorts of people with disabilities and without. um It's just really actively pretending to be something you're not, actively holding your muscles in a certain way, actively using certain word choices, actively counting eye contact, and doing all sorts of things in order to make myself feel for everybody else that I'm fitting in. But when one does this over time, it's a covering up of oneself. and eventually it's a loss of oneself. Because eventually you just, it is who you are. If that's the way that you are now always holding yourself, and if that's the way you are always now reacting to things, and if those are the filters you've now put in place, and if those scripts that you've written for yourself have become so rote that they're now just the things that you say, you are just now this thing. no longer who you were and not even so sure of Exactly who that was or where that person begins and this mask ends And this is a really common thing and something that I spent a good 20 years just really suffering in You know You look at the homeless population in the US, it's 16 % autistic. It's the highest other than addiction. It's the highest rate within the homeless population. And a really big part of that is this masking. Is this like forced into being something you're not and a just complete loss of identity, which ultimately leads to depression. and all sorts of horrible outcomes. So it was about several years ago now that I started seeing all sorts of autistic content creators on social media. just listening. and picking up some couple of those old books that I have had around forever on autism. it's just all was just immediately just the most obvious thing and hit me over the head. I made an appointment with a well-known psychologist in the Chicago area who does adult autism evaluations and diagnosis and is well known for it. And I went to see her and went through the long process of diagnosis, which takes several meetings and interviews and tests and interviews of your family. But really only maybe a third of the way into this process, she just said to me, hey, Murphy, before we even get any further, you just need to know you're autistic. And just hearing that there and then just sort of changed everything for me. Travis, even though I was a grown adult, even though I had spent so much time thinking about all of this, all of the sudden, I was autistic. And autistic was something to be. And that label of being autistic, in fact, was much better than all of the labels I was allowing people to put on me or all the labels that I was putting on myself. And a big relief, just a huge relief to me. that this is who I am and this is why I I'm you know, I I it's a kid Travis my mom was a teacher and my dad was the superintendent of schools and I couldn't read I couldn't pay attention in class I couldn't Follow what the teacher was saying I just couldn't but I made it through elementary school and then into and through junior high largely because my dad was the superintendent and I had a professor-like way of talking and the teachers just all, you know, pushed me through and it, you know, really wasn't until high school that I started to have to really find ways to trick the teachers into being convinced that I was doing the work. Yeah, and it's like, I always think of like getting diagnosed with something is kind of twofold. It's like, there's that side of you that wants to know, and there's a side of you that does not want to know, because it can always, you know, just in case worst case. But it sounds like for you is just kind of a moment of clarity and kind of like a, you know, the relief was like, oh, everything makes sense now of why things were the way they were. Yeah, I think that the thing about the diagnosis is that it's definitive, right? And so you get it and then like, boom, that's it. It feels definitive. But yes, for me, it just felt like a tremendous relief. There are so, I have so many things about me that are incredible that I think are just wonderful about me in ways my brain works and ways I think. and ways I am just led by my heart that I'm just like enormously proud of and have always known about myself but have been shy or hidden about because I never, just, I don't know how to quite explain it, but then there's all these other things about me that I haven't liked about myself, right? That my inability to pay attention, my inability to... stand still, my inability to not, I'm very torrentic and so I do a lot of shouting out of odd phrases or moving of my hands and I just, all of these things were things I just did not like about myself and wanted to have excuses for, blame myself for. And same thing with like the photophobia. All of the sudden, all of it has a route that makes sense. and has nothing to do with my fault or something I've done wrong. And then it makes those things I like about myself, the gifts, the things that I know are special about me that we all have, but I just know and feel. Those things started to feel like things I could fine tune. And that were, started feeling like gifts and things that I could hone and take control over and... used to my advantage. And so, yeah, with the diagnosis came a great sense of relief. And one of the first things I did, this is, yeah, I was a 40 something year old man, I went on Etsy and I found a creator who made these really beautiful pins that look like badges. And it just says autistic. And I just put it on me, on my bag or on my shirt, and I just started wearing it every day. Forcing... people in my life who either don't know me or who have known me for years to just all of a sudden get confronted with this and either ask me about it or go off on their own and read about it or whatever it is. But it just forced me to sort of publicly tell everyone this is who I am. And I still feel that way today. If I'm asked to introduce myself to a crowd of people, I want them to know I'm autistic. It makes me, I feel like it gives me a bit of a permission structure to be more myself. And it gives them a permission structure to like, you know, understand a bit, like to not judge and not have to draw assumptions or conclusions or whatever it is. And it, for me has been, yeah, a big relief and a help propel me in a whole new direction. Yeah, and I love that you kind of just, you you got this diagnosis and you're proud of who you are. Like, because sometimes I even think people tend to sometimes hide behind their diagnosis because they don't want the world to know something about them. Yeah, absolutely. It was such mental health stigma in our country and in our world, in fact, with these very few societies that don't have some stigma about it. But in America, it's particularly a stigma and it's a difficult thing for people to want to confront about themselves or want to be labeled about them. And yeah, it's changing, or hopefully it's changing. yeah, and it's really important, because all these young kids now, many of whom have been diagnosed as autistic, but have parents that don't want to share that diagnosis with the kid. ah Because they have a worry and I feel for these parents. I don't I'm not in standing in judgment of these parents, but they have a Concern that if they do give the kid that label then it'll just put them in that box forever It might limit the kid in some way it might limit their the way other people interact with them and no doubt that all of those things are potential and true, but ah The lack of knowing creates so many other complications and creates so many other narratives and theories and labels that are traumatizing. And ultimately, autistic kids grow into autistic adults. There is no evidence otherwise. so allowing them to be autistic and allowing them to grow into it makes a lot of sense and is something you see more and more families doing. Mm-hmm. A couple of minutes ago, you mentioned masking. And after years of, I guess, masking, what was the hardest part about unmasking and kind of stepping into this new you? One of the hardest parts is my face. I move my, you know, I'm not, how do I explain this? Well, I do, when I am trying to sit with someone and if you and I are in a meeting, let's say, you know, I was in a meeting with someone, my goal would be in that meeting, I would have several goals and I would be running these scripts in my head. So first thing would be Murphy sit down right away. fast as you can find a seat and sit down so you're not like standing and know bobbing and weaving and as soon as I sit down the next thing in my script is put a knee across my legs so that I can have one leg on top of my other leg and I can hold it down to stop myself from rocking or moving. So script one sit down script two don't rock sit down don't rock sit down don't rock sit down don't rock. Script three is I want to appear I'm to the person I'm with in the way that they want me to appear. And by that I mean my facial, my face and how I'm looking to them. So I'm looking at you and I'm figuring out your face and I'm giving it right back to you to the best of my ability. It doesn't even mean I'm good at it. It just means that like this is what I'm doing in order to try to convince you that I'm not autistic, right? So now I'm sitting still, I'm not rocking. I'm mirroring your face and the next thing I have to do is eye contact. Because if I just mirror your face, I'm just gonna stare at you. But I need to give you eye contact, but I don't need to give you intense eye contact, so I need to count it out. So now don't sit, excuse me, sit, don't rock, mimic the face, look in the eyes. One, two, three, look away. Don't rock, don't rock. And then oftentimes I have a problem where I am erratic. I say things out loud quite often. So I need a script for that. Don't say anything. Don't say anything, Murph. Don't rock. Don't say anything. Mimic the face. Mimic the face. Eye contact. One, two, three. No, no, keep my head. Keep my leg down. Hold your leg down, Murphy. Okay, back to the eye contact. One, two, three. Don't say anything. Don't say anything. And throughout all of this, I also have to meet with you. I also have to hear what you have to say and then convince you of whatever it is I'm here to convince you of. Or get convinced by you of whatever it is you're here to convince me of. And I have to do all of that, but the main thing that 80 % of my energy is focused on is how I think I appear to you. And... You're not thinking I'm doing any of those things, likely. You might think I look kind of odd or something, or why is he keep, like, you know, looking at me or whatever, but you wouldn't be thinking in your brain that the vast majority of his attention is spent on trying to not look autistic right now. All of those scripts over time just build on top of each other, and that's just some of them, right? And they build on top of each other, and they're just like a constant cacophony of rules and sounds. And so one of the things that's happened is I've unmasked more and more is I still don't know how to hold my face. I don't just, it's, I don't know. I don't really know how to hold my face. And so I, it's, I don't want to mimic someone else's face. I want to smile because I want you to know that like I'm a friendly person and I'm happy to be here. But I have to remember. I have to like remember to do that. And if I don't remember, oftentimes I'll start doing something like this. moving my mouth and face around and just I'm not even conscious that I'm doing it and I just start doing it and I have to then either let myself keep doing that or you know ask myself you know can you not do that and what should I do and so really the hardest part of unmasking is all of those scripts and giving myself permission to let go of And so, know, I go to church every week. I go to a Quaker service, a Quaker friend meeting every week that I really love. And the Tourette thing is hard there because they meet in silence. It's supposed to be silent. And every once in a while, I'm like, you know, shouting out something like, you know, literally, it might be like, I love my wife. and like literally just do this in like the middle of it that was so scary to me and so I would have to run lots of scripts during, you know, silent during, you know, the church because I had to run scripts to not do that. But then I just let go of that script and just, you know, had my autistic pin on and, you know, allowed myself to say whatever I said during that time. And several times, I have and like it's just not been a thing. Nobody's cared. In fact, maybe some people are even endeared and it's fine. But I had to do a lot of work to let go of that script to get to the point where I was just calm and relaxed enough there that that would just happen and that would be fine when it happened. And so letting go of those things. And just allowing myself to just what happens happens and what you know what we get we get um you can finish your thought if you... Yeah, I was just gonna say it's actually hard to... Like, I can understand where you're coming from because at times, like, it's hard to be yourself. It's hard to be comfortable around a group of people and to actually show the true you. Mm-hmm. We all want to fit in so bad. Yeah, and we all have, or we shouldn't say all because we don't all, but there's an internal dialogue for a lot of people that does a lot of self-questioning. That I think in those moments as well makes it hard to just relax and be yourself if there's this, you know, constant sort of questioning of, you know, how we're fitting in or how we're doing or what they're thinking and all those other, it's hard, it's complicated, it's all layered. And these are all things that all of us, no doubt, everything in the mental health spectrum ultimately I think exists for people in different kinds of ways. It's just on this spectrum of intensity. I mean, I don't mean that to downplay anything. Depression is an incredibly serious and super difficult thing. and depression is not sadness. But there are concepts within depression that people, think, can understand a little bit and can wrap their minds around from their own experiences. And we all have, because of the shared human experience, so many of these things we all have in common in different ways. Yeah, it's so true. it's, I'm trying to think of like how to word this next question. So you've, you've learned, you kind of adjusted yourself to learn how to speak more openly. And I almost say lead and, how, what did that look like? How did you, how did that journey start off? Well, so it certainly had me become a different kind of leader, no doubt about it. My career has been in positions where I've managed a lot of people, either in higher ed or in the corporate world or in the nonprofit world. And I've always been a caring leader and I've always been a, you know, like a, try to be a motivating leader. But in the last phase of my growth here, I've just started to more than ever see every single person as just an individual set of skills. and needs and desires and wants that need to be individually tuned and catered for. And that in order to really be like an effective leader or an effective manager, one has to be in tune with people and in tune with what makes them click, with what motivates them. with what kind of environment they're going to be most successful working in, with what kind of work is going to be most interesting to them, is going to be most motivating to them, where they best fit into the organization based on who they are and what makes them tick and the experiences they've had. And this includes abilities and disabilities, and this includes all sorts of different kinds of skills and needs that exist within the workplace. And as I've gotten more willing to talk about my own discomforts, my own foibles, my own things about me that are hard to talk about, I've just become more more obvious to me and more more aware to me of how all of us have these things. All of us have stuff holding us back. All of us have things that make stuff more difficult than maybe it really needs to be. if something could just be adjusted or said in a different way or held during a different time of the day or in a different place or in a different volume or whatever it may be. And so I've just become much more empathetic and much more willing to sort of craft people's jobs and roles to ultimately, you know, what we learned together along the way. Very cool. And you, you were involved in the corporate world, but now you're, you're the director of a award. Are you still doing the circus school stuff? Yes. So I'm the uh executive director of an amazing organization in Chicago called the Actors Gymnasium. It's a circus school and a producing theater company. So we teach circus at all levels, both like kids and adults for fun, but also we train serious professionals in all the circus arts. We teach about a thousand students a year. And then we also help, we produce our own theater and we help other theater companies produce shows that have all sorts of circus or circusy type elements in them, flying and fighting and all sorts of stuff like that. As a kid, I had hard time imagining what I could grow up and do. It was really a fear of mine. Everybody else had all of these skills already that I didn't have, both athletic and in terms of school and reading and just all sorts of stuff that I... quite confident I didn't have skills in and I was really worried about what kind of job I could possibly have. truck driver was one that I like I had on my list and I thought was a solid like good idea and you know that even on the side of the trucks they tell you how much you earn a mile and like as a little kid I would just do the math of you know how much per mile and could I drive enough miles in a year and you know truck driver was one but the other one that I thought of that I could do was being a clown. I thought that there really are people who are clowns. They must be getting paid. And I thought that that's something that I could also probably do. I think I would have that skill set. And so as a kid, I dreamed of being a clown. I went to college for theater. There was a clown who taught there named Davis Robinson who I studied under. Being a clown just always was a thing to me. And so after I've had this career in higher ed and corporate world, this position became available at this circus school in Chicago. And I just really wanted to try my hat at it. And boy, am I glad I did. I've been doing this for eight years now. And it's like a joyful enterprise and all of these strong, amazing, brave people. and tons of neurodivergence within that world, of course. And also a fun world to try to figure out how to make more inclusive when it comes to neurodivergence or mental health or disability. Because it's a world that's so based on being physical and repetition and um all of those things. so... Yeah, it's like super fun for me. I'm not a clown, but you know, I run the payroll for all the clowns. So that's pretty good. Awesome. I love it. I love that you found something and it sounds like it's a place you can be really authentic. Yes, that's right. In fact, when I, as part of the story really is when I interviewed for this job, I interviewed it for it with that autistic pin on. And there were several layers to the interview, you know, with the board and the faculty and the staff. And in each one of these interviews, it's one of the very first things I talked about was that I'm autistic. I'm still learning things about myself. There's some things I'm not as good at as others. I don't like working in a bright workplace. And if you hire me, this is the way I'm going to be and I'm going to tell you all about it and I'm going to find ways to accommodate myself and I'm going to find ways for everybody to be accommodated in the organization. And I just thought if I get the job, then amazing. And if I don't, then it's okay. And I did get the job. And so I've had this luxury. It's a privilege really. of being able to show up at work every day and be my authentic self. that's really cool and I love it and so to keep yourself like grounded and you know keep healing from you know past things and just life in general are there any techniques methods or like types of therapy that you use to keep going Yes, yeah, a lot of things, but for me the primary tool is stillness, darkness, meditation. I am super interested in float therapy or sensory deprivation tanks. I don't know if you're familiar, but this is a common practice. You'll find float centers all over the place and what it is is 10 inches of 10 inches of water, incredibly clean, pure water that's heated exactly to skin temperature. Skin temperature is 95 degrees. And then in that water, that 10 inches of water, is put magnesium sulfate or Epsom salt at a 40 % concentration. So 1000 plus pounds of magnesium sulfate into this 10 inches of water. everything heated to skin temperature, approximately 95 degrees, right? When a human being lies on top of that water, it's completely buoyant, just like the Dead Sea. And so you are just lying without any gravity whatsoever, just completely buoyant right on top of that water. And that water is heated to your skin temperature. So then the next thing we do is we heat the air above the water. also to your skin temperature. So now the air, the body, and the water are one single temperature. Then we turn off the lights and eliminate all of the sound. And so at this point you can't see anything, you can't hear anything, and since the air, water, and body are all of the same temperature and everything is humid, you truly can't feel anything. And since you can't see the water, your body loses awareness of the water. The water disappears from your consciousness and you are simply just floating in total darkness with absolutely no sensations on your body or no sensory input in any way whatsoever. And that's floating. And it's something I discovered. I did the first time many years ago, but rediscovered about 10 years ago. And there's float centers all over the place. And I has now become a super regular practice of mine. Something I do every day if I can for an hour plus. And just a place where I get to be in total reserved and total stillness. It's like anonymity and it's just like freedom for my mind. And so a really big part of my calmness, of my ability to center myself, of my ability to go longer in a day before I'm so burnt out that I can't operate anymore. big part of that recharge comes from that stillness and that safe, sensory-free space. So if I had any personal trick that's helped me above anything else, it would certainly be that. That's really cool. I've always been curious about float therapy. I honestly only heard about it like six months ago. I saw like an advertisement. I think it was like on Instagram or something. I don't even know. And so I looked into a place around here, but now you're you're making it so I actually want to try it. Like I think that's super cool. Yeah, it's worth trying once for sure. Even just for the, you know, the buoyancy is pretty incredible. I mean, no gravity and just, you know, no pressure on your joints, on your muscles, on your bones, just whatsoever. It's just like pressure free. It's just a rare feeling for anybody. And I have bad anxiety and depression, so I think that kind of stillness and that kind of that low light type of place seems just very relaxing and. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. Anxiety is a common thing. You see people floating. One of the common reasons you see people floating is anxiety and trauma processing. Absolutely, yeah. Super cool. I'm going to look into more local area ones to see what I can find out. So we talked a little bit about the workplace. What do you think that like employers can do to better accommodate for those with suffering or I don't want to say suffering, like with. Sorry, I used the wrong word there. With. high functioning autism, like what can they do to better accommodate? yeah, yeah. You know, I think I said suffering earlier, Travis, and it's one of those words that none of us want to use, but there's also like, there is truth to it, and it is a word that explains something. But anyways, I feel that a lot myself. Okay, so yeah, so for those who are autistic ADHD on the neurodivergent spectrum, There's a lot of things that employers can do. There isn't one sort of, you know, perfect test, but there's all sorts of things that can happen. And one of the first is just simply workspace. And so there's all sorts of practices, you know, that can work against the success of someone autistic in a workspace. So whether it's the lighting of the space can often be really important. the sound of the space if it's in a loud space or a less loud space or a distracting space, the difference between working at home or working in the office, the difference between having your own dedicated workspace or just having like the ability to work wherever in an open space, all sorts of differences like that if they're really managed well and provided to set up in a way that's going to work best for the employee. can make a huge difference. Another common thing that you see is meetings. So for a lot of neurodivergent folks, they are not going to do their best if they are just invited to a meeting without knowing what the meeting is about, what's going to be discussed at the meeting, or what the agenda is of the meeting. And so a really common accommodation is simply knowing about meetings in advance and having an idea in advance of what the meeting is about so one can be prepared. So agendas before meetings is something that doesn't happen in a lot of workplaces, but could all of a sudden add a whole lot of comfort for folks, which then allows them to like be their best. Now they can show up to the meeting and contribute. Otherwise you might have just have someone showing up at the meeting and they're not contributing. But now you have employees showing up and contributing and it makes a huge difference. Other things are notes. So oftentimes, maybe after a meeting, can be really useful if there's a shared understanding of the meeting or shared understanding of what the to-dos or takeaways or things that are now going to happen following the meeting. And a lot of work environments. It just sort of happens fast-paced and there's a lot of assumptions that are made and some things get done and some don't and then it all gets worked out on Slack or an email or whatever. But could be a whole lot of efficiency and a whole lot of comfort and clarity if there was just a series of to-dos or a series of tasks at the end of the meeting of understanding who's responsible for what creates clarity and understanding. social expectations in the workplace. It's a simple one, but it really happens a lot. And so there can be a price to pay for not being socially involved in the workplace, not being there when everybody is singing Happy Birthday to Nancy, or not being there at the picnic when it's at the company picnic held in the sun, or whatever it is. There's all sorts of ways that those types of events can be held in a way that meets everybody's needs. And I'm not suggesting like only hold your events in calm indoor places. I'm suggesting know your employees. Like know who the people are that work for you are and know what they're like and know what they need so that you can figure out the best solution that works best for everybody. And that's really... The advice is like know your employees, whether they're disabled or not. They all have things that they would be doing better for you if you were to accommodate them in different ways. And everyone wants to get their best out of their employees. Everybody wants to retain employees. Everyone wants to have the kind of workplace that employees want to work at. And so knowing your employees. and accommodating them in reasonable ways that'll help them ultimately be their best at work, understand their role best, understand their expectations best. They're just gonna perform better, everybody is. And those are the places, those are the places that I always start. Yeah, and that's all really good stuff and I totally agree with you. What? And I actually think now that you've said some of those things, think I believe I actually work with somebody that may be on the spectrum. And you made a couple of light bulbs go off on my head. was like, oh, that makes sense of why he acts a certain way. Yeah, right, yeah, absolutely. Yes, that's right, right. And it's not the same for every autistic person, right? Like, you know, just like anything else, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. But there is a different sensory wiring happening. There is a different neurological wiring going on, which means that they are reacting to stimuli differently, and it's predictable. um And it's figureoutable. And yeah, we just all have to talk to each other. And make it so that people are comfortable asking for accommodations. And then just making it just absolutely second nature to just accept all of the reasonable ones. Any accommodation that comes to you that's at all reasonable, just take it. and let your employees have that so that they can get their best disabled or not. And so I was going through your website and I saw that you were featured in the New York Times. What was it like sharing your personal journey on such a global stage? such a nice question. Well, it was fun. They reached out to me and I was excited. didn't really was shocked when I got the call. There's a lot of people who do what I do. so I was really thrilled to talk to them, had a couple of long conversations. And the piece is ultimately about, it's similar to what we're talking about, it is about workplace accommodations and ultimately what workplaces are successful. so getting that out there, getting that message out there in such a prominent place, it was just super exciting. And have heard from all sorts of folks that got them thinking, that put ideas in their brains. HR folks and others who, you know, start to think about it differently. And so, yeah, it was fun and I was glad to be part of it. Super nervous though when a photographer, she shows up from the New York Times. know I would be and I'm like one of the least photogenic people like I can't stand like to this day I've been You're like my almost my 50th interview and to this day I still can't stand to be in front of a camera It's still like very I don't know the word like Yeah. It's just not comfortable. Yeah, yeah, right, right. It's like another presence that you have to account for. Yeah. these things. I'm like, okay, you just have to bear with it. Get through it. I'm good. I'm good. Yep. Just a few more questions here. Why is it important to you to speak up about autism and mental health? Well, because of who I was as a little kid, and because of how scared I was, and how alone I felt, and how worried I was, and how desperate I became at times, and knowing that all of those, and I was a kid growing up in a privileged way, right? I had parents with some means, and I had parents who wanted to help. And even in all of that world, it was hard. It was traumatizing. And I just don't want that. I want kids to not have a secret. I want them to feel like what's going on with them is who they are. And that who they are is who they are and that who they are is needed. And that every one of us has strengths in us that are here for a purpose, every single one of us. And until we really get to know ourselves, until we figure out like who we are, what makes us tick, what doesn't make us tick, we're not gonna get to the core of our greatest skills. And we need everyone, we need everyone everywhere to figure out like what they're best at and bring it to the table because that's what... That's what the world needs. That's what society needs like for real. That's how things get solved. That's how we start talking to each other. And so it's both like a really big goal and a little goal. I wanna talk about it because I wanna reach kids and I wanna reach parents who can realize that autism is something to be proud of. It's something to be excited about. Whether one is experiencing it in many of the profound ways that folks do that might have them ultimately end up nonverbal or end up with like apraxia and out of touch with their body. Still, all with unbelievable gifts and skills that are not going to be brought out, are not going to be understood until we're all talking about it. And so I wanna help kids feel good about it. I wanna help their parents help kids feel good about it. Very well said. I absolutely love that response because it's like, a lot of kids need to know like, they're feeling is real and it's okay to be yourself. Like you're not alone in this world. That's right. That's right. Absolutely right. So what would you say is the most surprising thing you've learned about yourself on this journey? that's a great question. Yeah, well, it's definitely the most surprising thing I've learned about myself on this journey is that I'm calm. Is that I'm not... I don't... I have a natural state where I'm not shaking. I have a natural state where my brain isn't racing. I have a natural state and I'm not saying I can just achieve this natural state anytime I want but I have the ability to be calm, to center myself. I now have breathing techniques and other things that I can do that can put me into this kind of space I need to when I need to. And so what's most surprising to me is just that I'm in control of me. I'm able to calm myself when I need and also that I'm not necessarily not a calm person. And that's a revelation. It's really cool though, like when you figure out those techniques that help calm yourself, it's actually really cool how much they do work if you take the time to make them a habit. Mm-hmm. Yes. Absolutely right. It has to be a habit, has to get ingrained in you, has to be something that... And you have to believe it. You know, I think a lot of people think about, you know, like breath work that like, they don't really believe that that connection exists the way it does. But it's very real. And the things that we can do with our breath, with our bodies, with our minds are way more than... most people even can scratch the surface of understanding. Yeah, for sure. If you could go back and tell your younger self, why think about life and healing? What would it be? Um, yeah, so hard. if I could go back and tell my younger self, yeah, I would tell them that, Yeah, that your experience is real. That there's integrity to you and to what you're experiencing. And that you are different. Like, you are different. But that difference is the best thing about you. And there's another side to it. And... It's hard for me, it's still hard for me to think about. Yeah, that little boy is still traumatized in many ways. Yeah, awesome. And this is kind of just a generalized question I ask all my guests. What, and you touch base on a little bit. What is the biggest stigma when it comes to mental health? Oh, yeah, the biggest stigma or, well, don't know if quite this is what you mean, but I would say the biggest stigma or misunderstanding is that there isn't competence behind nonverbal individuals. And so there's a lot of people who are partially nonverbal or totally nonverbal or voluntarily nonverbal and A lot of them for different reasons, autism the most common. And for a long time, and continuing to today, there has just been a lack of, we didn't assume competence, and that there wasn't somebody there, there wasn't something there. And the truth is, as we learn more and more, and as so many people have always known, there is competence, and every person. behind every soul is a gift. sometimes the greatest gifts given are given to people who don't appear to have the greatest gifts. And so when we meet people, however they are, however they present, assuming competence and being open to their gifts to me is just a massive misunderstanding and stigma that needs to go away. And that's exactly the type of response I'm looking for, because to me, with that question, there's no right or wrong answer. I love all of them. It's pretty cool, the responses that I get. Yeah, awesome. Well, this was fun, Travis. Yeah, so just I'd have like just two more easy follow up questions. ah Where can people find you? Great, yeah. So people who want to learn more about me, it's best to find me on my website, which is murphymonroe.com. M-U-R-P-H-Y M-O-N-R-O-E. There they can learn about me, learn about the work that I do, both the circus work, but also I do a lot of consulting and keynote speaking, people want to learn more about that. would welcome them too, and they can contact me from there. And I'm always happy to hear from anybody about anything. And so folks are welcome to reach out to me and I'm happy to connect. Perfect. Last thing here, as we covered a lot of ground on tonight, this episode, is there anything that we did not discuss that you would like to bring up? I don't think so. think we've... Yeah, sorry, Travis. I don't have anything right now for that. Yep. Appreciate it. yeah. Awesome. Well, Murphy, I admire your authenticity and how you've been able to overcome all these challenges in your life and be the real you. Thank you so much, Travis. Thanks for creating this space and em holding it for people. Thank you for coming on the show. I've enjoyed our conversation. And thank you to all those that are listening. If this story resonates with you, please give it a thumbs up and share it. Follow us on Instagram and YouTube and take a minute to review our stuff. And thanks again for listening. Until next time.