When Getting Out of Bed Feels Impossible: The Reality of Chronic Depression

When getting out of bed feels impossible, it’s not laziness it’s chronic depression. In this deeply honest conversation on Overcome with Travis White, Travis White sits down with bestselling author, mindfulness coach, and mental health advocate Nita Sweeney to talk about what living with chronic depression actually looks like behind the scenes.

Nita shares her lived experience with bipolar II, anxiety, suicidal ideation, panic attacks, and long depressive episodes including how depression can steal your energy, your identity, and your sense of hope. Together, they explore why when getting out of bed feels impossible, even the smallest actions can feel overwhelming, and why progress in mental health is never linear.

This episode also covers:

• What chronic depression really feels like day to day
• The difference between anxiety and depression — and why depression is often harder to climb out of
• Why “just try harder” is one of the most damaging mental health myths
• How movement, mindfulness, and compassion can support healing
• Why staying alive during the darkest moments matters — even when hope feels gone

If getting out of bed feels impossible, this conversation is a reminder that you are not broken, you are not alone, and what you’re experiencing is real.

Learn More

Learn more about Nita Sweeney, her books, and her work at:
 👉 https://nitasweeney.com

Listen to more honest conversations on Overcome with Travis White, where real stories help remind people they are not alone in their mental health journey.

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Transcript

0:01

Hello and welcome to Overcome a Mental Health Podcast. I'm your host, Travis White. This is a place where you can share your mental health stories. I'm very excited for tonight's guest. I'm speaking with Nita Sweeney. Nita is a best-selling author, mindfulness coach, mental health advocate, ultra marathoner, and dog mom. Sorry, all that was like a tongue twister to me. But welcome, welcome to the show. Thank you, Travis. I'm really excited to be here. Yeah. I think we're going to have a great conversation. And without wasting any time, I'm just going to turn the microphone over to you and have you tell us about your journey. Well, you know, it started a long time ago. I'm not young-ish anymore. And I probably always had depression. I know I always had anxiety. I was always kind of a melancholy kid. And I didn't realize how much it was impacting me until I had made my way through college and was actually in law school. And that's when I started having my first really severe panic attacks. And then I actually practiced law for about 10 years. And in the ninth year, I got so depressed that I just couldn't function. mean, it just couldn't function. I was showing up at work and I think they, know, people there knew, but people were, this was the mid nineties and people didn't really talk about it. You know, it wasn't. as mainstream as it is now, or I mean, it's not mainstream, mean, know, I just didn't talk about it. And I wound up suicidal and wound up gratefully in the psych ward as opposed to dead because that would have possibly happened and got really good mental health because I was a, I mean, I'm privileged, I'm white obviously, but I was a partner in a law firm and I had this amazing kind of mental health package. uh insurance package and all this kind of stuff and so was able to get care that a lot of people don't get and I've sort of had struggles on and off for many years. I always wanted to write. I've gone in and out of various diagnoses. The one that finally stuck which didn't happen until I think it was like 2004-2005 was bipolar 2. So the That's kind of my official diagnosis that with suicidal ideation, bipolar two, anxiety, you know, all of that. And yeah, and I always wanted to write. always wanted to write. did most of what I did when I was, when I practiced law was writing and research and that's what I loved best. And I couldn't get a book published. I couldn't get a book finished. I couldn't get, you know, I'd get a few magazine articles published and then I'd go through another group. depressive episode and I would write a draft of a book, maybe edit it some. I tried to, you know, pitch one book and as soon as the rejection started rolling in I just couldn't, I couldn't handle it. I couldn't handle the stress of that. And finally in 2010, I think that's right, I was, I think I was 49, I saw a social media post from a friend that said, call me crazy, but this running is getting to be fun. And I thought that was possibly the most ridiculous thing I'd ever heard. The words run and fun did not belong in the same sentence in my mind at all. And mind you, I had therapy, I'd been in group therapy, like I said, I'd been hospitalized, I had medication. I also learned to meditate when my husband, when I met my husband. That's kind of a funny story. I'll share it quick. But we were barely just started dating and he was at my house for dinner and after dinner he said, hey, do you want to sit? And I said, do you want to what? I was like, I didn't know what you were talking about. And what he meant was, do you want to meditate? And so my very first meditation instructions were from this guy I had just been on like three dates with. And he said, I'm going to set the microwave timer for five minutes. Do your best to notice your breath and try not to fidget. And that was it. That was the whole thing. And I was like, what? And so all this time I had been meditating. We had gone to retreats and it really helped. It really, really, really did help. But I still had these horrible bouts of depression, crippling, imposter syndrome, anxiety, panic attacks, especially around bridges. And So my friend, my high school friend was about the same age, about the same size, as equally not athletic as me. And I watched her and she seemed to be having fun. And so after a few months passed, I checked it out and I leashed up the little dog, not little, but our dog, Morgan, and went down into this hidden ravine and jogged for 60 seconds. That's what the training plan that she was using said it said 60 seconds of jogging and I swear if it had said a minute or if it said Running I wouldn't have done it I but something about 60 seconds of jogging sounded doable and then from there You know different things happen, which I'm not gonna go into the whole thing But that's my first book and I eventually was able to get that first book published and it it's essentially a story of me taking up running at middle-age and how it helped my mental health and also kind of the accomplishment of running at that age at my size. I was a bit larger than I am now. And, you know, just that sense of accomplishment. And yeah, so that book is called Depression Hates a Moving Target, which is the, it's true. I had been saying that phrase for years before the publisher wanted a title. That was a That was the one, that was it. So yeah, and then from there, you know, I wish I could say, then it's all, you know, wonderful and magical and unicorns and rainbows. But I had to then figure out the next book and then the next book. And luckily I had had a really good supportive editor, Brenda Knight, who's now, all my books are now with, my first three, are with a company called Books That Save Lives, which I love that imprint, that's their imprint. And... And that's how it felt working with her was it just felt like she was, you know, really kind of pushing me along, helping me stretch. But the biggest thing about running that has helped was it did things that therapy, medication, meditation, writing as a practice, the other things didn't do. It like rounded out the, I call it a trifecta of mind, you know, body and spirit. It's like the meditation keeps me in the moment. and helps me manage the anxiety that way. Writing as a practice is another form of meditation. And then all the medical stuff, I have that too, but I didn't have a movement form. So I wasn't really tending to my body in the way that I could. And I swear that if I hadn't been running and... done some of the long distance stuff that I did that I wouldn't have the stamina to have finished that first book because I had tried. had, I don't know how many first drafts of books I've got and I could never get it finished, polished, have the focus and concentration, the stamina to get it published. And yeah, and that's what it took. And so now I, you know, I'm still writing books and I'm working on my fifth book, hopefully come out next year. We'll see. ah But they all have, they're different. The first book is a pure memoir with some, it has a little kind of a how-to at the end. The second book is a writing journal, so it's blank pages with author quotes. The third book, Make Every Movement Meditation, is a how-to about how to meditate while you're moving. And then the fourth book is also meditation called A Daily Dose of Now, and it's about mindfulness practice. It's like a daily reader, so every day you have a little. daily practice, do this, just real tiny little, you know, pinprick of do this to try to help you incorporate mindfulness in your day. But they all have, they're all memoir, almost all the examples, maybe not all of them, but most of the examples are me doing something in my life to show you how I do this thing. And they all have the mental health component. They're all about, you know, how I use these tools to manage. the symptoms of mental illness, which I have. have, you know, chronic depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, and bipolar disorder, probably a few other things thrown in there that aren't diagnosed either, and that's okay, I don't care. know, the labels don't mean anything, and they mean something to me because they help the professionals know what to do, but there's so much overlap and so much, you know, fluidity that I'm not totally sure. So I'm going to breathe and let Travis talk now. uh Thank you. like you you don't want to be known by your labels though Like you said, it's good thing for the doctors to know how to help you out and assist you But like when it comes back to it because I suffer from bad Depression I've had some suicidal ideation I've called a hotline, but I didn't quite end up going to a psych ward or anything but I mean, I was to the point where I had plans on what I was going to do, how I was going to do it. There was never a when. I've had problems with like dissociating and completely not remembering what I'm doing in that moment. When I get that way, I'll wander off or I'll, you know, go fall asleep in a car or something like something just weird that I wouldn't normally do. But, and then anxiety like It's it's so it's either like I'm really dealing with this super anxious mind or this dark deep depressed state and it's like and speaking of that I do have a question when you're which one like when you're say you know you're feeling anxious or depressed which one do you feel is easier for you to come out of is there that's a good question. You know, because I meditate, I think the anxiety is easier for me to come out of because I can bring my mind back to the moment and realize that most of what I'm anxious about is not currently happening. And so I can, have that, I've trained my mind. I mean, it's really a skill, like almost like a muscle. I've trained my mind and I can pretty much, you know, bring back to whatever the sensations are right here. Right now, I'm looking at Travis. I'm seeing his face on the screen. My behind is in a chair. I'm in this room. know, very concrete details that I can bring my mind back to. Physical sensations, my breath. Sometimes my breath makes me anxious though, so I'm better off with like maybe the feeling of my hands or my body in the chair, my feet on the floor, something like that. And um And that's easier with the depression. Now I'm better because I realized that by moving, I can create energy. It sounds backwards because at the moment it's happening or when it's happening, I often feel as if I have lead in my arms and legs, like somebody has just filled my limbs with lead. and I can't move them or I'm walking through pudding. That's kind of like a viscous substance of some type that it's pushing against me. But I have enough experience with it now that after a while I realize you just need to walk. You just need to get up. If you're in bed, just get up and walk around the living room once or twice. Just that. And that it just, it's just this little thing, but that for some reason is harder for me to remember than when I'm having the anxiety. Just get in the moment, just get in the moment. That one, for some reason, I think it's because I've meditated a lot longer than I've, you know, moved in an intentional way. But yeah, those are the, those are kind of the fixes I do. But yeah, I would say the anxiety is a little bit easier. I also, I hate, I mean, I'm going to talk about this because it's true. I am through menopause now. And I truly believe women, paramenopause, and when you're going through the paramenopause and menopause, it was like my anxiety went on steroids. It was just, it ratcheted up so high and the medical provider I was seeing at the time really did not want me to be on, want anybody really to be on hormone replacement. And now there's new research that that's not, it's not necessarily as tied to all the bad things they used to think. And so I really think a tiny dose of some kind of hormone replacement therapy might have really helped because I just, it was just awful for years. And now it just, it's like it, didn't go away, but it's so much better and nothing else changed really. I mean, I had the meditation. I wasn't moving yet then, but I went through that before and that was all before then. so I just want to say, you know, Make sure you're asking your doctor, I'm not sure about the testosterone thing with men. I don't know anything about that. I just know the women's hormones, but women, please ask twice about that. If you're in perimenopause or the early phases of menopause and you're having anxiety, like jump out of your skin anxiety kind of thing. That's what I had. couldn't, it's just, driving was just horrible. And... uh I think, I mean, I did a lot of things to make it easier. I did a lot of things to desensitize myself. And so I was able to drive. It was mainly on freeways and over bridges. But, you know, I got through it. But I think that if I'd had other kinds of medication support, it might've been easier. So I just wish I had had, I just wish I had pushed back a little more. or that it had been 10 years later. Because now they realize, wait a minute, those studies, they're looking at them again and they're not quite as, know, so yeah. And you did bring up an important point because I feel like the anxiety in women when they're going through that stuff, it's not talked about enough. it's... No, it's, oh yeah, it's just, it's like it's shamed or something. I don't know. There's a whole thing. It's just, they want us to tough it out and that just makes me crazy. But yeah, yeah, it's not talked about. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about it, ladies. I will definitely talk to you about it. And like going back to what you said previously, like the anxiety, it's the same for me. Anxiety. I've trained myself because my, you know, you go to therapy and my therapist basically taught me how to rewire my brain and, you know, make old habits disappear. But one of the things that he really taught me was like, you know, your, your anxiety is just thoughts. It's just like bad thoughts. And he's like, you need to pretend that there's a stream right next to you. you know, it's floating by, it's going pretty quick. And get those thoughts and just tear them out of your head and throw them away, watch them float down the river. so since I've been able to, I mean, it took me bit of time to learn how to, you know, subconsciously, like... sit and think about like because sometimes like I'd be doing something I'd be really anxious and I'd have to stop and think like stop what I was doing okay I'm feeling anxious what do I do now I could do without like anybody noticing before my wife would be like okay what are you doing why are you like standing why are you standing in the middle of the room like you're putting the kids to bed And so now my anxiety is really easy, but once I get one of those deep dark ruts, like depression, I went through like a month episode where I just could not do it. And finally, I'm, that was just recently. So I'm finally, think towards the end of that, it's been about two months, but. And my therapist did help with a few things, but I'm just glad that I find somebody else that, you know, they say anxiety is that easy one to push. But it's all, I feel like with mental health in general, it's all like a learning curve. Oh, completely. And I feel so bad for people who don't know that, who think that they're doing something wrong because they can't fix it, or they're doing something, you know, because they feel the way they do that they're doing something wrong. And no, it's, you have a disease and it's, you know, that's the symptom. These are the symptoms of your disease. If you had the flu or a fever, you know, you wouldn't expect yourself to be able to dance on the table. But somehow with depression and anxiety, think, or any mental health, you know, dissociation, I have, I don't have dissociation so much, but I have auditory hallucinations sometimes where I hear music that isn't there. And also olfactory ones where I'll smell things that aren't there. And yeah, that's, those are the symptoms of my disease, but I coach a few people, I'm not a therapist, but I coach a few people. And that's what we talk about is just trying to normalize this so that we don't add this extra burden to ourselves by shaming ourselves for having this stuff. Because we didn't do anything wrong to get it, so we don't need that extra layer on top of it. So we work with that first, you know, trying to kind of normalize what's actually happening so that then we can access the tools because so much of what gets in the road is the way we think about ourselves or the way we think about know, mental illness or these, whatever you want to call it, these things we live with that, you know, challenge us. very, very well said. So, and I want to go kind of move towards your uh bipolar diagnosis. Did you, before you had that diagnosis, did you, what were some of the biggest misconceptions you had about bipolar, being bipolar? yeah, I think I was only familiar with bipolar one, with the mania where you are up three or four days or weeks or whatever, and you get so much done and you're so productive and you're high and you're happy. And so that was sort of a stereotype that I had about it. And my bipolar two primarily manifests as depression. So that's mostly what we see. And so it... it took my psychiatrist a long time to realize that, you know, that it wasn't just the depression. And we started talking about, there's this one episode where I, back when I was practicing law, I flew to Chicago and maxed out my credit cards buying lawyer-y clothes. And then I flew home and realized that I wasn't going to be able to pay for that. And so I flew back and returned them. and all in a period of very short period of time. And when, I don't know how that came up and it had been years before, I mean that would have been maybe, maybe 10 years before I was having this conversation with my psychiatrist and I'm not sure how that came up, but she stopped and she went, wait a minute, I could sort of see the wheels going in her head, she was, hold on just a minute and And I'd had trouble. had, wasn't, I don't think they would call it treatment resistant depression, but I would, the meds would stop working very quickly. And so I had been on a ton of different meds. At one point I was on six different meds. That was the other thing I wanted to say about running is I was able to reduce, I'm still on medication, but I was able to reduce, not even intentionally. I just ended up having the side effects of having, of being on too many meds. And they realized, my gosh, the running is, you know, giving her the, yeah. or whatever she needs. And so we're going to crank this down. but I was on all these meds and, and they would work and, but just not quite. And finally, once she realized that I was bipolar too, she put me on a mood stabilizer in addition to, I think it was on antidepressant too. It doesn't really matter. You know, let this, I let the psychiatrist figure that out. I'm not going to tell you what she takes, but she put me on other, she changed my med routine and that really helped. Because I think what was happening was I was still depressed, but then I would get these mixed states where you're depressed, but you have energy. And that is very dangerous when you're really depressed, but you actually have energy. And that's when I would get the anxiety and suicidal ideation and all of that. So yeah, was just that it was kind of a fluke in a way. she... She sort of apologized, but she said, we just never talked about anything that sounded like this. And I think when I had my hypomania, I actually looked kind of normal because I had enough energy to do some stuff and I would bathe and I would have all the things that you do something when you're in a depressive episode. I think that was... That was just a challenge for her. she's, adore her. She's a great psychiatrist and she's, you know, I've been her patient for many, many years. But once she figured that out, it, I think I'd only been seeing her about a year before we really figured that out. And then that really changed things. And then when I took up running, that changed things again. So those were probably the two big, like the sort of three big times in my medication and therapy journey. And the first was when I was diagnosed originally. when I actually went on meds the first time. And then the second time was when she figured I was, it was different psychiatrists figured out I was a bipolar. And then once I, was probably a couple of years after I started running, I just started having all these crazy side effects. And she said, these are the side effects of somebody who's on too much meds. Let's drop you off things. Oops, sorry about that. Drop you off things and see what happens. And so she added back a little tiny bit of one med. So far so good. That's really cool though that you were able to see decrease in medication because you were running. Yeah, it was, it's yeah. And I had a, I had a health issue a couple of years ago and I had to stop running for a little while. And I was really scared because I was really afraid that all the, you know, the depression would come back, that I have to go back on all the meds. But I didn't, I, you know, I was able to keep doing other kinds of movement enough to get a benefit. enough, think that it just didn't, I just didn't have the symptoms. So we didn't have to adjust anything. were, I started seeing her a lot more often when that was happening because she was really afraid I was going to kind of fall off a cliff because I could, you know, cause that's the only thing they could explain it. So yeah. And I feel like to get a diagnosis with like, I'm not even talking just mental health, but I think in just physical health and mental health in general, it seems to a lot of times, unless it's like, you know, like straight up like a problem with your kidneys. Like there's so many factors that play a role and so many things that overlap that it can be very difficult. Yeah, and it's, mean, that's why they go to school all those years and why the, you know, the, the, I don't know if you call it nephrologist, but like the doctors that's that it's not just the doctors that do that, the tests, but the doctors that analyze what all those tests mean. I mean, I can, I can, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty smart. I mean, I got to have like three degrees, you know, I'm not exactly, but I get the test results on my chart before the doctor sees them and I'm Googling them and I'm reading them I'm thinking, my God, I'm dying. my God, this test result means I've got this thing and then that doctor eats my... And well, actually, Nita, the test result means you don't have the thing. Like, how does that even... I mean, I'm just like, how did I get it backwards? But I have... no, it's terrible. Yeah, that's what... I have this one friend that I text with a lot. We both have had a number of health issues and we're always like, we always say to other, Nita, Dr. Google is not your friend. Dr. Google is not your friend. Oh dear. I've had neurological issues since in my early 20s. I have a seizure disorder and uh I remember when like all these symptoms first started happening and I started having seizures and googling it's like, it's got to be brain tumor. It's got to be this. And it's like, but then when it comes to it, I always have doctors telling me, like, you know what? you're at a point where you're probably better off not being diagnosed with anything. Because if you're diagnosed with something, it's not necessarily going to be good. Yeah, yeah, yep. yeah, that's. I like how you put it, Dr. Google. Oh yeah, it's bad, it's bad. And I can't help myself. I mean, I know better. Oh my gosh, I know better. I've been burned so many times and yet, yeah. Yeah. Gratefully, again, I have an amazing doctor. He happens to be a runner too, which is wonderful. But he understands that I have medical anxiety in addition to, know, garden variety anxiety. And so he tries to get... my test results reviewed, you when he knows that he's ordered some kind of blood test or something, he tries to get on it right away so that he keeps me out of the medical exit, you know, otherwise he's going to get a couple too many messages from me. So I read the test. Oh, what is it? know, and I mean, I still have that and I can bring myself back in the present and I still have that. So yeah, it's a thing. But I think, you know, I'm, I'm really fortunate because I've had some really crappy, I mean, I had one psychiatrist that was just horrible and I, um, gratefully found this other one because, you know, it's not always easy to find ones that are on your plan or that, you know, oh my gosh. Um, I don't want to get started on the healthcare system. Don't even start me. Um, but, um, um, but had to have a primary care physician who understands who doesn't, you know, doesn't write hypochondria and read letters on the top of your chart or something like that. But who gets it? Who knows that I do have that and I'm always going to jump to the most horrible ridiculous conclusion. And you know, there may come a day when it is that. It could be that someday. But right now it's not. You know, I'm fortunate. you know your body better than anybody, so I do feel like you have to doctor shop to find that person who's right for you. Well, and who meets your, who can see your personality too, because some people don't, some people like doctors who are just the facts. You know, they just want the specific information. I need one who's a little bit chatty, who's in fact, had, I had an amazing cardiologist. He's, he's wonderful. Dr. Saab gear for the other health issue I had, he started the walk with a doc program, which is an international program where every Saturday they have different. chapters around the world of you go for a walk with a doctor and they teach you different things. And he started that program, he's amazing. And he's a very one sentence kind of guy. And I would go in, I knew he was completely right and I'd leave completely freaked out. And so I had a very lovely conversation with him and I got referred to a woman who's just a little more chatty and that's what I needed. I tell people to go to him all the time. because he's really, really good. he was just his personality and mine just didn't match because of my medical anxiety. That's not anything. He's a great guy. I'm getting started this fantastic program. I published in this at his name. But I wanted to say about the walk with a doc and it's obvious that it's him. And he writes the funniest emails. He's hysterical in writing. yeah, so I ended up with a different cardiologist who's very renowned colleague of his and Dr. Albers and she's wonderful. it was tough choice because I knew how good he was and I knew he was completely right about what he was saying, but it was like I couldn't hear it because of my issues. It wasn't about him at all. And so I think maybe 10 years ago I wouldn't have done that. I'd probably still be his patient, which probably would be just fine. I might be fine by now. But at that time I was having this recurring issue And I was so anxious about it that I just had to find someone else. And that's hard to do because I live in the 14th largest metropolitan area in United States. So there's more doctors here than there are in other places. Maybe where you're at, you're in Utah. So maybe where you're at, I don't know. But I was fortunate to be able to find somebody else and also brave enough to ask because not all, like Dr. Sabir was great. He was absolutely great. He's like, completely understand. Let's help you find somebody else. And not every doctor would be like that. Like the psychiatrist that I talked about, I won't say his name, but that may have even forgotten it by now. He was just a gas that I did not trust him and didn't, you know, wanted to find somebody else. He just was like, whatever, you know? And yeah, so it just really depends on the doctor. Yeah, for sure. But I'm the same way. I need it spelled out for me because otherwise, like, there's things that I don't understand, I don't get, and I'm not always one to necessarily ask questions. Sometimes I'll just let it go, let it slide. But then I'll think later, I'll go, I should have asked this, but whatever, then I never follow up. But like I had to be better at that. But I found a doctor now that like, it's like everything's laid out. This is what's working. This is... not working like you need to do this and more of the chatty type as well. Yeah, yeah, don't need them to, we don't need to talk about what they had for lunch, but I need just a little more about, know, well, this could happen, that could happen. So yeah, that's great. It's good right now. I just am so grateful because I, definitely feel my privilege. I mean, I know people who have just struggled to get any kind of care at all because of financial reasons, because of their, you know, employer has crappy insurance or they don't have insurance at all. you know, um, So I just feel so fortunate and I just want to say that I acknowledge all of that and you know, lucky lucky like a lady. And it's like, I hear people with different health coverage and like, well, I can't do that type of, you know, appointment because I can't afford it because my healthcare doesn't cover it. I was like, that's, too bad. Cause difference. Yeah, they're talking. Sometimes they're talking the difference between paying their rent and paying their doctor. that's like, wow, whoa, I have not. There was a day when I might have been in that situation for a long time ago, but currently I'm not. And, you know, I do what I can to help others because I know that I'm. want to go back to talking about kind of exercising and that type of stuff. So somebody that's struggling with, let's say they're in a deep dark depression and they're struggling with starting to exercise, what advice would you give them? Just go for a walk. Walking is the most underrated, most valuable thing you can do. And if it means walking up and down your hallway, walking around your living room, just anything. If you can get outside and get some fresh air, that's even better. If you can find other people to walk with, that's even better because there's a, with the thing that with me, I think I didn't understand how much the kind of fellowship aspect of it would change my life too when I ended up joining a group, ended up joining a running group. But it could be, I mean, there are walking groups, are, what did I see? There's, you know, well, there's hiking groups, there's just all kinds of groups. If you go to meet up, there's groups everywhere, depending where you're at. And like I said, the Walk with a Doc program, that's international. Look for that, Walk with a Doc. and on this DOC, like a walk with a doctor, but walk with a doc. But yeah, just some basic gentle stretching. it's like, just have to get, I say just, because I shouldn't say that word because this is not easy. This is not, it took me, it took me probably three months to actually even open the training plan that my friend was using. And then it took me, maybe six weeks to actually go out and try the first session. I mean it was it was not just anything so don't so please don't take it that the wrong way. But finding a movement that you can do even if it's a little challenging and that you enjoy too because I had tried the you know robux classes I had tried yoga I somehow always injure myself when I do yoga I think I I'm too competitive and I try to, you know, do what the teacher's doing and I break myself. But, you know, finding something that you enjoy and for me, I didn't realize that I needed to be doing it with other people sometimes too. And now when we meet, my running group meets once a week on, well they meet a couple of times, but I usually go on Saturdays. It's the highlight of my week or it's one of the maybe not the highlight, but it's one of the best times of my week. You know, we go and we run and we do run walk. So we're not running the whole time. And then we go to breakfast, you know, and I will tell you that during 2020, my husband had a heart attack. So we're in the middle of pandemic. He has a heart attack and then he open heart surgery. He comes off that on a feeding tube. He didn't do well on the ventilator and m I was there, you know, taking care of him on the feeding tube during the pandemic. There were professionals coming in and out, but otherwise we couldn't have anybody in the house. And he, you know, we had to be uber careful about him with germs. We'd seen plenty of people on ventilators. No, thank you. And I got a text one Saturday morning and I look out, it said, look at your window, look at your front window. And I think there were six or maybe eight members of my running group. they had made signs like race signs, like you'd be at a marathon and they were standing six feet apart in our front yard and they were all signs cheering my husband on. You you can do this, heel at, it was just like, I just, and I never saw that coming. Never saw that. I I signed up because I wanted to run a race. I didn't sign up for best friends and that's what I got. So when people start, Yeah. So when people start, just know that you might need more than you think. I don't know if I'm making it, because I know when you're really depressed, it's so overwhelming. Like, oh yeah, need a surer. I get that. I get that. There have been days not that long ago where I really wanted to go for a run, knew I would feel better, but I was still in my pajamas and it was probably three in the afternoon. And so I started... running around my house up and down the hallway, just jogging, know, jogging in my pajamas. And pretty soon it was too hot to keep running in my pajamas. And so next thing I knew I was in running clothes. Well, hell, if I'm in running clothes, I might as well go outside. so before I knew I'd go for a run, but I started in my pajamas. So that's, that's the kind of thing where, because I know this works, I, I know that it's, I have to get moving. But the mental thing of, my God, I feel like there's lead in my veins. I have to push against that. And that's the hardest thing. But Nita, I just want to lay down. I understand. So do I. You have to really fight those urges to go back to sleep or lay back down. It's a struggle. Yeah, and I think for me though, it's chunking it down into like these tiny bite-sized pieces. So if I'm in bed and I'm having trouble getting out of bed, the first thing to do is not get up and move, which is what I just said. The first thing to do is throw off the covers. Just roll over and throw off the covers and lay there for a minute. And then when you kind of get through that, then sit up on the edge of the bed. and just sit there for a minute, you know? And then after a few minutes, stand up. I mean, really, just, that's how I had to do it. Just chunk it down into these tiny little pieces. Because if somebody, you know, if this lady I didn't know who writes books and seems to have a magical life told me, well, you should go for a run, I would have, you know, reached through the screen and strangled her. So. I'm not saying that I'm saying do exactly what you can. Sometimes that's just throw off the damn cover. Sorry, throw off the covers. Throw off the covers and just lay there and go, okay, well, I'm uncovered now. And then after a while you go, well, I might as well sit up. At that's what my, it's like, okay, I'm sitting up. might as well stand up. It's like, okay, I'm standing up. I might as well walk somewhere. You know, just like it, but it has to be these tiny bites because when I'm depressed my mind is so easily overwhelmed it's just everything is too much everything breathing is too much and so yeah that's what I mean when I say go walk around your living room I mean throw off the covers that's what I mean One of the things that I find helps me just like in the morning I used to be I most of time I work from home and I used to you know just keep my blinds down all day not let the sunlight in and that just makes it worse so now like there's days I still get bad migraines so if I have a migraine I'm like okay I don't want to let the light in but Most days now, like, first thing I do is go and open the blinds. Just to get some natural light. And that's... my bed every day too, which is, never, people used to talk about that and I think, that's so stupid. Why you just gotta get back in it, you know? But there's something about that act of making my bed. feels like self care. It feels like, you know, I'm, we get in bed, it's gonna be, there'll be like a nice bed to get into cause it's all made up. And I don't even, I'm not talking tucking everything in. I'm talking just pull the covers up and smooth them out. You know, just the, like the. the least amount of stuff I can do. Like you said, it's the little things. Yeah, it's these little, and that's all I can do when I'm in a depression. That's all I got. That's all the energy I've got. So have another question here for you. How can mindfulness and meditation look different for people who struggle with sitting still or find traditional meditation overwhelming? So that's part of why I wrote the book. It's called Make Every Move of Meditation because you don't actually have to sit still to meditate. Sitting is a posture and you can meditate in literally any posture, including moving. It's sometimes harder to develop concentration if you're not sitting, but you can do it. And so at retreats, they have periods of slow walking or something that's fast walking where you're meditating. And so what you do, the steps are actually the same. You're just choosing a different posture. So you pick a period of time or when I'm running, I pick a distance usually maybe. And it can be from this driveway to the next driveway or from this tree to that tree or a period of time. And the reason I do that is because then my mind thinks, oh, we'll be done soon. I don't have to do this forever because my mind is still, I've been meditating 30 years, my mind is still like, oh my God, we have to do this for an hour, no way. So you pick the time or the interval and then you choose an object of meditation. And that can be any of your senses. You can also use your thoughts, but that's a little tricky. So that's like PhD level, don't do that. So it can be... Sometimes when I'm running, I use the color green because it's so green here most of the year. In the winter, I'll use like gray or white. And just notice anytime I see the color green. So you can go for a walk or you can walk slowly or just any kind of you can jog, whatever. But pick a color or pick a shape even. Everything's circular. Say anything circular. I say anything circular. And then your mind will wander. And again, let me just back up about the object of meditation. You can use, um in the spring, I'll use the lilacs, scent of lilacs. We will have a lot of lilacs scent and I'll notice, yes, there's lilacs present. No, there's no lilacs. Yes, lilacs, and that's it. You can use taste, like eating meditation. You can use the texture and taste of food. You can use sound. Sometimes I'll do hearing meditation where I'll listen to bird songs, especially if we run early in the morning. Sometimes there's a lot of bird song. You can also use touch, and that's why the breath is actually a touch sensation. so those are kind of the five, you can use any five senses. you pick one, you just choose one. Doesn't matter which one it is, you just pick one. And then you start yourself moving and you do your best to keep. your mind on whatever you've chosen. So let's say I've chosen the color green. I'm going to go for three driveways color green. I get halfway to the first driveway and I'm already thinking about what we're going to have for breakfast after the run or you know what I am supposed to be writing tomorrow or the podcast I'm going to be on with Travis next week or whatever and then I go oh wait so that the fourth thing is remembering wait I'm supposed to be meditating and then The fifth thing, which is really important, is I very gently, without reproach, bring my mind back to whatever it is I've chosen, which the color green. there's some green, okay. And I go back to that. And then I get another half a driveway and I'm thinking about something else and I go, wait a minute. And that's what it is. Meditation is basically 90 % forgetting that you're meditating and then remembering, yeah, and then very gently bringing your mind back. And then you just do that until the interval or period is done and you're done. And if you have questions, you find a teacher or someone, coach like me to answer your questions. But that's really it. You just choose something, choose a time, get moving, forget you're meditating, remember you're meditating and go, wait a minute, here we go. And then you just do that over and over until the time's up. And then eventually what'll happen is you'll develop the muscle of focus and you realize the periods that you're forgetting are shorter and shorter and the periods of time where you're actually either seeing or hearing or smelling or tasting or touching, the thing become longer and longer. But it's not by force. It's like a natural process. It's not like, I mean, it's funny because they, in Zen, you know, was like, the rings are kind of thing, but they're not making it either. You just very gently bring it back. that's the process. So I hope that I hope that made sense. But that's I wrote a whole book about it. That's, that's really cool because I've, I've always thought as meditation is something that you somewhat have to sit still for and you know, that's, that's really cool. That like gave me a totally complete, like, like new understanding of it. Cause it's like, so, so thank you. Yeah. I learned something. So you've done some coaching work as well. Obviously without breaking any HIPAA laws, you share a success story of coaching someone that really moved you? Oh, wow. I think the biggest one is a person who was really, really... They had a very important to them story to tell and they were so stuck, they just couldn't get to the page. And we were able to get them to the page and... they ended up self publishing the book, but they actually got their story out there into the world. And it was just, you know, the book isn't going to make some huge splash or anything, but it was such an important story. I won't tell because you know, don't want to give away, but especially to them, it was so powerful that I saw that it's not about the book. It's about the transformation of the person when they do something. that has terrified them when they overcome their fear and accomplish this thing that they thought was impossible. And that was just, because I've helped a lot of people write stuff. mean, that's kind of, you know, I do a lot of different kind of coaching, but that's the one that people tend to come back for. But this person was just so frozen that frankly, I wasn't sure we were going to make it. It's like, I don't know, you know, we just do our best. And so that I think is probably the most powerful thing. Yeah. really cool. it's like those things like, they're the types of things that keep you going. Yeah, they really do. It's just seeing people grow even in the tiniest ways. I've had people who've had difficult health diagnoses. I've had people who wanted to, you know, run crazy races that they weren't sure they could do. I've had different types of leaders like executive people who essentially weren't sure if they could stay in their career and Some of chose not to and some figured out how to do it. you know, cause I've been coaching a long time. I don't do a lot of, I never have a lot of clients at the same time cause I can't do it. I still have my own mental health challenges and I'm one of my own books. So I only have maybe three or four clients at a time. yeah, it's so when they, when people, when it clicks, man, it's just, it makes me high. Yeah. really cool. So if you've honestly answered the majority of my questions without even me asking them, it's like you're reading my mind or something. Well, I apparently want to talk about what you want to hear, so that's good. We knew it would be a good match. When I first contacted you and I said, you know, let's talk about possibly doing this, I just thought this is going to be a good match because I just feel like we just have the same audience and that makes it beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. few more things here. If someone listening today is struggling to find hope, what would you want them to hear from you? the thing I always say is stay because it will change. It will get different. In the next second, it will be different. And that's what we tend to think it's frozen and that I'm going to feel this bad forever. But it's actually changing right now. so, you know, I just urge people to stay because it changes. It just changes. And if we can, you kind of can see that in hindsight, it's hard to see it when you're in the moment. But, and then, you know, people always say, reach out for help. Man, when you're so depressed, sometimes it's really tough, but just hang on to whatever you are right now. You know, hang on here right now. And it will change. It absolutely will change. That's the only constant is change. Things just do not ever stay the same. So that's what I always say is just please stay. We need you. First off, you may not think we need you, but we do. And it's going to change. It's going to get different, I promise. And it's like, I always go by this thing, if I can just have that little mustard seed of faith or hope, that's all I need to hold on to. Yeah, and so that's the thing when you're in a not crisis place, figure out the mustard seed then, you know, because you need it, you're going to need it when, you know, the crap, or just the fertilizer hits the ventilator again, you're going to need it then. So that's one of the tools I work with. people sometimes is trying to find something that they can hold on to when it gets bad again. And it's hard because people don't want to think that it might get bad again. It won't be the same, but it's, you're going to have ups and downs. We just do. It's not linear. You may have progress, but it's like this. It's not a linear diagonal up. There's that little backslides. So Nita, what is next for you? Like what do have planned? well, I'm hoping that the next book will come out next year. It is another memoir, really pure, pure, memoir about my relationship with my father. And it coincided with my worst mental health crisis. So he was diagnosed with terminal cancer six months after I got out of the psych ward. And I had a lot of time on my hands because I wasn't practicing law and all he wanted to do was play golf. And so we played golf until he couldn't. then, you know, so it's about discovering a way through my mental health issues while learning about him and learning to let him go because he had terminal lung cancer. Yeah, and then it's a lot of my backstory too. It's, you know, kind of have to tell the whole story. It's a big project that I've been working on for many years. It has lots of moving parts. And so it's been a real challenge and I don't, I couldn't do it before now. I tried and now it's starting to come together. So we'll see. So it's called Memorial. We'll see if that title sticks right now. That's the working title Memorial. And uh yeah, that's it. You know, I have coaching and I have marketing of the books and all that kind of stuff, but that's the big thing is I'm very focused on trying to get that book out into the world. Give it a baby. actually made me think of one more question here. In your writing, do you find it like challenging to write about some of these things or is it more therapeutic? Okay, so at first it's therapeutic and then it gets challenging because I have to realize that I'm not the only one who cares. I have to make other people care about it. And so that's the challenging part sometimes is, wait a minute, I have to step back and somehow see if this is universal. Is there a universal theme here that anybody else besides me would care about? Or my dog and my husband maybe. Maybe my sister and brother. And that's kind of the hard part. And then also the structure is often very tough. But at some point it becomes, because I'm working so much with the craft elements, the structure and the way you say things, it's almost like it's not my story anymore. um It's because you have to get, I'm in this kind of technical weeds place where it's not, it's almost like they're not real people. And then every once in a while, I'll read something and it'll go, oh wait, that really happened. I remember that. You because you have to be in it, but yet you also have to take a step back sometimes. yeah, it's both. It's all, there are days when I'm crying in my office and I can do about probably about three hours on a day of it and then I'm just done. And that's both because it's emotional, but also Because the focus is just that you need, especially when it's like a huge project. We're talking like 90,000 words. All these pieces of 31 chapters is all this moving stuff around. And there's probably a more efficient way to do it. And I've tried every other way. And this is just what works for me. So somebody else might be much more efficient. And it would be less painful for them. don't know. That's my process. I'm book five. So we'll see. That's great, like it totally makes sense. I'm sure there's so many ways to like dive in and write in different ways you can do it. you go to a conference and you'll hear 10 different people say that this is the way, you know, and it's like, no, there is no one way. There's only your way. And I've tried a bunch of different ways. And the other thing is that what worked for this, what worked for the book before won't necessarily work for this book either. It's like you have to learn how to write all over again. It's kind of crazy. So this is kind of just a general question that I tend to ask pretty much everybody that comes on the show. When it comes to mental health, what you feel is the biggest stigma. Oh, um, wow. There's so many. I think that we're lazy. I think that's the lazy. That's the one that, know, like we, like if we just tried harder, we'd be fine. That's, that's the one that just gets me again and again. It's like, this is not, yeah, no, we're not lazy. We're either confused or we're exhausted or we're in the wrong place or, you know, like with jobs, it might be bad job fit. There's all kinds of reasons that you aren't doing more quote potential. but yeah, when I hear people talk about, they're just lazy. I just want to scream, scream. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's about a hundred I could go, but that's the one that popped in my head. That's the one that's like a hot button for me. You're lazy. It's just a phase in life. You can get over it. Just it's like. It's like obviously you've never had to deal with anything past a bad hair day. Yeah, or they have, and it didn't, it wasn't chronic, it was acute, because there's a very big difference between having an acute episode and then getting well, and someone like me, which I think you have it too, Travis, who's chronic, I have a chronic condition. This is not, I mean, it gets better, I better days, and I'm much better and much more able and you know to do things than I was let's say 10 years ago or 15 years ago but it's not going to go away. I'm not going to wake up someday and not have bipolar 2 and not have these episodes and you know it's chronic so You find the workaround, you find, like you said, you've discussed all of them, the tools that you use to get through the day by day. I find the workaround and I've had the resources to find the workaround too. Because I am not here to judge anybody who cannot do any of the things I'm saying. Because some people just can't. You just can't. You can't function and you're not getting help you need. you know, that's the truth about what the world we live in right now. I totally agree. So where can people find you and your stuff? The best place is my website, Needasweeney.com. And there are some, there's a free little book thing called Three Tools for a Happier, Healthier Mind. And when you get that, you end up on my email list, which you can either stay on or own and subscribe from. And I try to keep that updated. I have a blog and stuff like that, but that's the best place. Just get on my newsletter and you'll hear from me maybe once a month. um Maybe not that often. try to send an email newsletter often enough that people don't forget who I am, but I don't flood people's inboxes. I do send a few more emails. Like if I have a book coming out, I try to send a few more emails because they fall through the cracks. Even email will fall through the cracks sometimes. And people go, I didn't know you had another book out. Yeah, I do. do. So yeah, that's it. NeedtoSweeney.com. Thank you for asking that. yep. And last thing here is we've discussed a lot of topics tonight. Is there anything that you'd like to bring up that we did not discuss? We need to bring that on, right? When you need to that on, You know, I was in a group, was either when I was in the psych ward or I was in a group for, they wouldn't let me out of group for almost three years. I was bad. And at one point in some of that place, we had to make a list of everything we would do kind of in lieu of attempting suicide. And... And that was the last thing on my list was I would make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and eat it. And when I run races, the longer kind of races, I will cut, I will make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and cut off the crust and cut it into little tiny pieces and put that in a Ziploc bag and carry that with me eat these little pieces as I go on. So I'm a big peanut butter and jelly fan. Sorry, is random. I used to down you know the the frozen Like they're called uncrustables, and I remember doubting those yeah but then Yep, I I changed my diet, and I don't eat a lot of foods that I used to eat, but I remember yeah, yeah, I go with the whole grain bread and actually, that's not true though. In races, I usually eat white bread, which I never eat because it's easier to digest when you, you know, if you're running, it's easier to digest that. But yeah, usually I go with the whole grain. If I'm going to eat bread, I don't need a lot of bread. But yeah, but yeah, uncrustables that would be that's so see, I didn't, uh I wasn't in that generation. But yeah, I would have definitely inhaled those. Yeah. uh much for spending some time with me and telling me your story. I admire all the stuff that you've, know, I admire you, I should rephrase that. I admire you for everything that you've had to overcome. And I know that you have a great story to share and keep pushing, keep pushing through the hard. Thank you so much. much, Travis. I just want to say thank you for your podcast too, because this is so important. Whenever I see anybody doing a mental health anything, I'm just so grateful and happy because there's just so many people out there that are suffering. if we can touch them and keep them on the planet till they get some help, that's the key. Yeah, it is the key and I think a big part of it in this podcast does it is making people that feel alone know that they're not alone. They're not the only ones that are going through this stuff. Not at all, yeah. That's great. Thank you to all those that have listened. Take some time to review us and you can find us on all major podcast platforms. Thanks again. Until next time.