Overcome With Travis White

Two Cancers in 14 Months: How Do You Keep Going When Life Won’t Let Up?

• Travis White | Mental Health Advocate • Episode 63

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 54:58

What do you do when life won’t let up?

In this powerful episode of Overcome with Travis White, we explore the unthinkable reality of facing two cancers in 14 months and the mental strength it takes to keep going when life won’t let up.

Dr. Jeffrey Reynolds was in the best shape of his life. An Ironman triathlete. A nonprofit executive. A husband and father. Then he received a life-changing diagnosis. And before he could fully process the first one, he faced a second two cancers in 14 months.

How do you keep going when life won’t let up?
How do you manage fear, anxiety, and the weight of mortality?
How do you lead, work, train, and stay present for your family while battling uncertainty?

In this conversation, we unpack what it really means to keep going when life won’t let up not through toxic positivity, but through discipline, vulnerability, faith, and resilience.

If you’ve ever faced back-to-back adversity…
If you’re exhausted from fighting one battle after another…
If life feels relentless right now…

This episode is for you.

Because sometimes the question isn’t “Why is this happening?”
It’s: How do you keep going when life won’t let up?

What We Discussed

  • Receiving a cancer diagnosis via phone notification
  • Facing two cancers in 14 months
  • Managing anxiety between medical scans
  • The “warrior mentality” vs. vulnerability
  • Why “You’ll be okay” isn’t always helpful
  • Faith, mortality, and spiritual wrestling
  • Using endurance sports as mental training
  • How exercise protects mental health during crisis
  • Supporting someone through a major health diagnosis
  • Turning adversity into purpose and legacy

Learn More

Every Mile Matters
https://www.everymilematters.com/every-mile-matters/

Connect with Dr. Jeffrey Reynolds:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drjeffreyreynolds

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drjeffreyreynolds

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drjeffreyreynolds/

Visit Blog:

https://overcomepod.com

Shop Merch:

https://www.etsy.com/shop/OvercomeMentalHealth

Follow Overcome - a Mental Health Podcast

Listen to us

Want to have a real conversation about your mental health? Fill out this form!

Hello and welcome to Overcome, a mental health podcast. I am your host, Travis White. This is a place where you can share your mental health stories. I'm very excited for tonight's guest. We are speaking with Dr. Jeffrey Reynolds. Dr. Jeffrey Reynolds is an author, Ironman triathlete, two-time cancer survivor and nonprofit executive from Long Island, New York. He's the author of Every Mile Matters, Turning Triathlon, Training Into Cancer Triumph. which immediately became a top new release in several categories on Amazon. Jeffrey, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me on Travis, I really appreciate it. Well, I think we're going to have a great conversation. I should rephrase that and I know we're going to have a great conversation. But without wasting any time, I'm just going to turn the microphone over to you and let you share your story. Sure, my story begins at around 10.30 a.m. on April 1st, 2022. I'm heading down the highway and my phone lights up with a notification. I get to a stoplight a few minutes later and jump into my healthcare portal and scroll through pages of medical jargon I don't understand, keeping one eye on the light. And I get to the bottom and there's a punchline and the punchline says clinically significant cancer likely. And so I got my cancer diagnosis on the road via text message at a stoplight. You know, to be fair, my cancer journey didn't start that day. I went for routine physical and had a PSA test, which looks for prostate cancer. I had a level that was just above normal, not very much, 4.2, four is normal. But my doctor said, look, it's doubled since the last time you were here. And so let's just, to be on the safe side, check it out. And so they checked it out and lo and behold, I've been diagnosed with prostate cancer. A cancer diagnosis throws you no matter what you do. You measure life as before cancer and then after cancer. But one of the things that Um, was, was pretty shocking about the entire thing is that I was in the best shape of my life. As you said, during the intro, I had just completed Ironman Florida, uh, a few months earlier for those who don't necessarily know, um, an Ironman race is a 2.4 mile open water swim. It's 112 mile bike ride followed by a full 26.2 mile marathon. You don't rest in between. And if it takes you longer than 17 hours, you are automatically disqualified. I did it in 15 hours and nine minutes. And it was a huge accomplishment. And honestly, as much as it threw me that I was the picture of health and yet I still got cancer, I came to understand that fitness and health aren't exactly the same thing. They're really different things. But I drew from my training. as an Ironman competitor to get through cancer. And honestly, my first thought was I do hard things. This is what I'm built for. I do triathlons to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Cancer is plenty uncomfortable. And so I was able to draw from that strength. so diagnosed on April 1st, the weekend of July 4th, I had surgery and had the cancer removed. Um, you know, hassled my doctor a little bit about how quickly I could return to running. He said, you can't for a while. So I walked more than a mile around the nurses station on the day of my surgery. and then I walked more than a hundred miles in my neighborhood in the month after, but brought, got my strength back and was able to run the New York city marathon that November. And by all accounts, I was back, you know, this was just a blip along the way. You know, I was back and, and. ready to get back to life, you know, healthy and cancer free. By then I had become an evangelist for routine screenings. I even did a public service announcement for the Prostate Cancer Foundation of America that went national because I was younger, I had no symptoms. Who better to preach the value of routine screenings than someone who was the picture of health and, you know, had I not gotten that routine checkup, I wouldn't have known that I had cancer and the outcome could have been pretty different. So I went for a routine colonoscopy. This is August the following year. go for routine colonoscopy. I come out of the colonoscopy on the recovery room and the doctor says to me, look, I found a couple polyps, but I also found a pretty significant mass. I left the office that day with a surgical referral and just thrown headlong into a Into a spin. So two cancers in less than two years, two cancers in about 14 months. This one more serious than the first. Again, I drew from the great discipline, the determination I developed during triathlon training and applied it to the second round of cancer. so stage three B colorectal cancer, I well. up having 75 rounds of radiation and I guess about 25 rounds worth of chemo and quite frankly was lucky enough to come out on top. There's no evidence of disease. My cancer has been, they don't use the term cured anymore, but they don't see it anymore. The tumor is gone. I go for routine checkups every three months, which comes with a certain level of anxiety. Um, but I made it through. so, you know, I've, I've pledged to tell my story as often as I can, not for the sake of telling my story, but so that maybe I can change other people's encourage them to get check up, checked up, provide some level of support for people who are facing obstacles or crises in their life. and just, you know, offer some words of wisdom. As you mentioned, I wrote a book about my journey called Every Mile Matters. I started the book during chemo and then I finished it while on safari in South Africa. I had always wanted to take a safari and quite frankly, know, cancer gives you that kick in the butt for all the things that you wanted to do. You should go do them because you don't really know what tomorrow is going to bring. In fact, none of us know what tomorrow is going to bring. So, you know, out of this, you know, journey I am left with, you know, they talk about with cancer that there's no evidence of disease, but cancer leaves behind plenty of evidence. There's the lifelong side effects of chemo. There's, you know, the always looking over your shoulder, but there's also some good stuff. And that good stuff includes things like more gratitude, a better appreciation of the time we have here. And, you know, as you probably saw in the book, a reappraisal of a whole bunch of things, including, you know, my with others, my friendships, my thoughts about immortality, my spirituality. It's just like I said, there's before cancer and then after cancer. I can only imagine what it's like to endure one cancer and then getting two within 14 months. That's just crazy to me. So I admire the positive mindset that you were able to build afterwards and where you're at today. Would you say there's any specific mental technique from... the endurance sports that you participated in that carried you through your cancers. I think I drew on it pretty often. There were mornings when I, I didn't miss a minute of work, which I don't know if that's something to brag about, but I didn't. And, you in the mornings when I woke up and I was nauseous from the chemo, I thought to myself, look, you throw up during triathlons all the time. And it happens, you throw up, I've done 15 marathons, you throw up during marathons all the time, and you don't think anything of it. You wipe your face off and keep going. And I did the same thing during my chemo treatments. I wiped my face off and kept going and found that, you know, that mindset of just keep going carried me through. You know, I don't want to pretend though that, you know, it's all easy. There were some dark moments and, you know, I was very lucky to have a supportive wife, a supportive family, a supportive employer, you know, access to great insurance. perfect support system, but there were still times when I felt alone and I tried to dissect that and figure out, what's going on here? And, you know, my immediate thought was, well, they don't all have cancer, so they can't understand exactly what it feels like, even though they're supportive and empathetic. But there was something more than that. And I think the something more than that was when you face your own mortality, you're face to face with yourself. Like it's only you looking at you. And for me, you know, it went almost overnight from what do I want my legacy to be, you know, as a fairly young person to, wow, if this is it, what's my legacy been? You know, how have I lived my life? What have I accomplished? What have I achieved? What were the things I hoped to do that I never got to do? How did I treat people? You know, what was my contribution to the world and those types of things. And that's a pretty, it's a rude awakening and it's a pretty dramatic shift. you know, particularly if you haven't contemplated your own mortality. The hardest chapter in the book to write was one about how cancer changes you spiritually. And it probably took me between six and eight weeks to write the chapter. And now I can write fast. I've done a lot of writing for newspapers and I've written op-eds and that kind of thing, published a few social service type reports. So I can write fast, but this chapter took forever. And it took forever because I had so many questions about my own spirituality and what I believed. And even right down to what do I think happens when you die? These are things that I think we all touch on and maybe have some thoughts about, but you don't fully resolve those questions until you have to. You just look at them and say, these are big picture questions. You get distracted doing something else and eventually you come back to them. Well, I came back to all of them and I had some taps on the shoulder when very good friends of mine and it happened a few times would say, I'm praying for you every day. And I would be like, shit, I'm not even praying for myself. And when I did, it felt really opportunistic. It felt like, wow, the morning of a test, I'm gonna start praying now. And it felt a little bit disingenuine and not authentic. So I had to resolve some of those questions. There was a part of me that contemplated because it was taking so long, just pulling the chapter out. Like nobody knows it was supposed to be in there. No one's going to know. And I don't have to fully resolve those questions. But then that felt an awful lot like a cop out. It was almost like, you know, you're at mile 18 of the marathon and you jump on the subway and take the subway to mile 25 and then at mile 26. you you run across the finish line and say, I did it. Well, you didn't, you, cut a corner, you took a shortcut. And so I persevered through that chapter and thought about the things I needed to think about. I will say, you know, that chapter ends without any grand conclusions other than I'm confident that there's a higher power that's bigger than me and bigger than cancer. And for now that's all I need. And so, That was a little bit about the spiritual journey. There are of course ups and downs in all this. It doesn't matter what kind of training you have. You still have to wrestle with some of these age old questions. As a guy, look, I got two of the most embarrassing cancers you could get. It's the way, look, when women used to get breast cancer, it was kind of a weird thing until we began talking about it openly and honestly and realized that unless you're uh a sixth grader, it's okay to talk about breasts in the context of health. I had to do the same thing when it came to prostate cancer and what I affectionately refer to as my ass cancer. It's not, but that's what I called it. And so, you know, I had two pretty embarrassing cancers in the scheme of things, but found, you know, a fellowship among other guys who were walking the road, other women who were walking the road too. One of the things about writing a book is that you know, everybody comes out of the woodwork and says, hey, this happened to me. Do you have five minutes just to talk this through? And that's been one of the beautiful things. There were five of us that got diagnosed about the same time and one a little bit sooner, one a little bit later. And there are three of us that are still alive. you know, that gives you an awful, it gave me an awful lot of gratitude. Yeah, that's you. You mentioned a couple of things over, you know, last few minutes that I want to just touch base on. And I always say the importance of this is having that support group. You said that you had a lot of support as you were going through these trials. and the other one was, I can firsthand, I've had some medical problems myself, not near on that. I've had seizures so it's nothing like what you went through. But I remember thinking the same thing that all these people would say. They're praying for me and I wasn't praying for myself. So like when the time comes, it's like it feels a little bit weird. It's like, why am I doing this now? And it's not that I have, and I've always been, you know, somewhat a pretty fairly religious person, but. I've always spent more time thinking, trying to think about others and I don't always think about myself. so, but yeah, it's, one of those things I think is sometimes for me hard to do. It takes a look and if you want to do it in a genuine way, then you really have to resolve like some of those fundamental questions. I, you I, I, I, you know, I kind of fell back and said, all right, so I'm not sure exactly what I believe, but, but I trust the process. One of the metaphors I used was, and it's still use it to this day. I'm coming up on another, I get tested. MRI CAT scan some other tests every three months because I'm still part of a clinical trial. And so, you know, every three months, you know, probably my faith in God increases just a little bit more as I get to that testing period of time. But I did kind of resolve and just work through with myself, you know, what will happen if my cancer comes back? Well, you know, my doctors will find another treatment for me and what happens if it doesn't work? Well, then they'll try something else. And what happens if that doesn't work? Well, then they'll probably try something else. And if it reaches a point where they don't think there's anything else they can do, then I'll make the most of my life and I'm going to do that anyway. So I might as well just proceed. And, know, the thing that messes with your head around this, and I know, you know, this is a podcast about mental health, but the thing that messed with my head is, you know, stress. Stress doesn't fuel cancer. You know, there are people who believe that it fuels cancer, but it doesn't do you any favors and stress certainly has a profound impact on your immune system. so worrying about cancer might actually open you up to having more cancer and a reoccurrence. And so the whole time I had to really focus on what is it that would bring my anxiety down? What is it that would make sure that I didn't enter into a depression? And that's not. something historically I've struggled with, knock on wood. So I made sure that I continued my workouts during my treatment. I exercise pretty much every day, not to the same extent, but I made sure that I was exercising every day, yes, to stay in shape to a certain extent, although I think I'm the only guy who gained weight during chemo, but to give my mind that rest. And I'm not someone that does meditation that well. In fact, when I went to my first doctor's appointment, the doctor started showing me meditation videos and visualizing my tumor. I'm like, hold up, you got the wrong guy. Like I want the most powerful chemo on the planet. Because I'm in good shape, I know I can withstand it. And I want the radiation with like the red and green beams shooting the cancer. And so I'm not a meditation type of guy, but in exercising every day, it brought me into that meditative state. So it kept me healthy, it kept my blood moving, it kept my mind sharp. I made sure that I ate enough, that I ate properly, that I got enough sleep and did all the things you would otherwise do to maintain your mental health and well-being. I think it's really cool that you actually have something like that beforehand that you're passionate about that kept you going and kept you pushing through all the hard because not everybody has that. You spoke about, you know, leaving a legacy. you know, go through your two cancers. that have you rethinking the legacy that you were going to leave compared to what you, has that changed at all? I think just the way I think about time is a little bit different. You mentioned at the top, at the intro, I've been in health and human services for longer than I care to admit. Working with everyone from people newly diagnosed with HIV to survivors of sexual violence and domestic violence to folks struggling with substance use disorders, addiction, mental health. I've been in helping profession. You know, there was a part of me that felt like, you know, for 30 plus years, people have told me their deepest, darkest secrets and allowed me to walk beside them as I go through the journey. And I felt like in writing the book that, you know, I went to the world to share my story, right? Now I have some firsthand experience. had some, you know, what hopefully are helpful insights and I should share those out. And so I did feel. you know, some level of responsibility to share what I'd experienced because I have better access than most people, to share my story, but also to talk a little bit about some of the healthcare disparities that exist. If I was not well insured, if I was a person of color who lived in an urban area, my outcome might've been very different. If I was female, my outcome might've been very different because there are groups that have screening numbers that lag way behind mine. My cancer was picked up pretty early because I went for those tests because I had insurance. I didn't have a $200 copay. I didn't have a job where if I took time off from work, I was an hourly employee and I lost, you know, part of a day's pay. And so to me, that's all part of having privilege and part of what you do when you have that privilege is you, you know, share some of the the lessons you've learned and raise your voice for the next person to come along who might not have that same access. So the shift was there. It was also just in terms of I spend more time with my kids, with my family now. It's almost, and we all have this invisible countdown clock that like follows us around just above our head and. None of us knows how much time we have left, you know, and an average at 70 something years at this point in time. And when you think about, you know, I've got 70 summers and, maybe I've been through 50 of them. start to think more about what you all want to accomplish in the time you have left. I became not so much that I worry about it on a daily basis, but a little bit more in tune that none of us is here forever and do the best you can while you're here. You want to be remembered in a way that lifts people up. And so a little bit of kindness goes a long way. And then the last thing for me is little things now stay little things. There's stuff where little things used to become big things. Not anymore. Like once you go through this, it takes a lot to rile me. and I realized there's a lot of stuff that happens in life that just plain isn't worth trading your peace of mind for. Yes, for sure. It's definitely like that for sure. There's just those things in life that you just have to let go. How has your approach to training, health, or self-care changed since beating cancer twice? So my running and fitness changed. It's amazing how long it takes to build your fitness and how quickly it disappears. I it disappears very quickly. You know, I maintained an exercise regimen. I'm a big Peloton person, so I'm on the Peloton pretty regularly, pretty much every day. You know, I run pretty often. You know, there the difference was I wasn't out running 10 miles before work. You know, I was out run walking maybe two miles, you know, bargaining with myself, you know, run to the next stop sign. Then you could take a walk break or run to the next fire hydrant in order to get through. And so that was humbling. Every time I would come back from a run, my wife would say, how did it go? And my answer was always the same. It was pathetic. But by the same token, I was out there. You know, it wasn't that I had to run, it's that I got to run. I'll never forget, there was one day I was sitting in the infusion room and you sit there for the entire day and then you take a chemo pump home with you. And I was sitting in the infusion chair and it's all sick people around you. I mean, we're all sick, we're all in blankets because we're freezing in the infusion room and that kind of thing. We're not feeling well. And I looked outside and there was somebody running down the sidewalk and I thought to myself, ah, wish I, what I wouldn't give for that to be me instead of doing what I'm doing. And then as soon as you're able to get out there, even if you're running with a chemo pump tucked into your shorts, you're still out there and you still realize that it's a gift, a gift that lots of people would kill for. And so these days I am, I'm back to racing. did a 70.3 mile try over the summer in September. I've done a few 5Ks about a month ago. I actually ran, raced up all 86 flights of the Empire State Building as a fundraiser for NYU Langone. And so I'm back. I wouldn't say that my fitness level is back to where it was because as you get older, you always lose something. And I've still got some neuropathy in my feet and some other side effects, but I'm out there and doing it. And just to be out there in the fresh air, to be able to run again, to be able to clear my head, to be able to go for. you know, a 20 mile bike ride and be able to get through that without being winded just is, uh, you don't realize how special it is until you can't do it for a period of time. And so for all those folks out there that haven't exercised today or don't exercise, go do it because there's lots of people that would kill for the opportunity to be able to do that. Yeah, yes, it's I can raise my hand and say I need to get better at it. I've changed my life in other ways, but I needed like all exercise here and there, but I need to make it more of a habit in a kind of more of an everyday everyday thing because it's one of things that like when I go to a doctor's appointment, they always say they always bring it up and I always have to say, well, no, I haven't not quite that level yet. Well, you need to get to that level. Well, look, you know, the thing that got me into, I was not athletic as a kid. In fact, I got thrown off the track team in ninth grade for getting the other kids to smoke. didn't do a lot, took up golf, you know, in my thirties and forties, which is not exercise. Well, I'm going to annoy someone if I say it's not exercise, but it's not, to the same extent. and then It was really big life crisis where I tried to run a 5k at a professional conference and turned in a time of like 36 minutes. And I'm like, wow, I'm mid forties. I'm on a shape. This is a train wreck. And I did what anybody else would do. I just compulsively signed up for as many five cases I could until my time got faster. It was actually at a conference where I ran that first 5k went back to that conference two years later and won the 5k came in first. uh, with a time of 18 minutes. Um, and then 5k wasn't enough became 10 Ks became half marathons became full marathons. Then it wasn't enough to suck at one sport. needed to suck at three sports. And so I took up swimming, biking and running, um, and then slowly built up to, a full Ironman. So I started slow. Um, you know, every time I started a race, You know, always looked at it and said, there's people who get hurt during these races. I still have to go to work on Monday. I'm probably not going to come in first. I'm probably not going to come in last. I'm going to come in somewhere in the middle. I'm going to get the same dumb metal that everybody else gets in the same free banana for putting myself through their stuff. Um, but I feel good at the end of it. And so, you know, midlife, it was a way of regaining some fitness. You know, I had no idea as I'm doing all this training at four o'clock in the morning and at 10 o'clock at night that I was training for a race that I never signed up for. I thought I was training my way through a midlife crisis and trying to maintain my sanity. And so I'm glad that I took up running as opposed to buying skinny jeans and dyeing my hair and cruising the local community college. You know, in retrospect, it was a pretty good choice. So, know, I guess the moral of the story there is you kind of, never know what's going to come your way, but you want to be in the best shape you can emotionally and physically to deal with whatever happens. One in three of us will be diagnosed with cancer at some point in our lifetime. Two million Americans hear the words, have cancer for the first time each and every year. If cancer doesn't get you, then something else is gonna get you. And maybe it's not even a medical thing. Maybe it's a divorce, the collapse of a relationship, the loss of a job. You never know what it's gonna be, but you wanna be in the best shape you can to deal with that head on, to cope with it, to walk through it and not avoid it, and then come out the other side stronger than ever before. Yeah, and that's one thing that I've learned from doing this is everybody's going through something. There's always something that they're going through. Like, and if they say they're not, then 99 % of the time I'd say that's a lie. Right, well, and that could mean that you're not fully acknowledging your life. I'm a big believer in that most of these things, you can't run from if you wanted to, but it's all part of the life experience. So there are people that, and they've written books about cancer being a gift, and they talk about how cancer is a gift. I don't believe that, I'm not in that camp. Cancer is not a gift by any stretch of the imagination. But there are some beautiful things that you can take out of it. if you process it and think it through in the right way. And so my relationships have grown closer. My relationships with other guys, especially grew closer. My relationship with my spouse grew closer. My relationship with my kids, know, all my relationships to a person grew closer and my appreciation for health has just grown exponentially. And so I think there are lots of potentially negative things that you could turn into positives depending upon how you process them and how you look at them. And as much as I like running, I'm really keyed into, you can't run from your biggest problems. You might be able to run through them. And the metaphor I use in terms of this scans I, that goes along with wondering if it's going to come back a third time. Really is I imagine myself running alongside cancer. And we talk about connecting again, cancer talks about coming back a third time. Of course, my response is try me, try me again. But I run alongside that fear for a little while. And then that fear begins to drop back and I began to pull ahead. And eventually I leave that fear behind. And then I'm just running like there's no stopping me. And anytime the anxiety creeps up, that's what I envisioned. And I'll run alongside it for a little while, right? Because you can't run from it. We'll kind of play out back and forth. What happens if you come back? What will I do? How will I win this time as well? How will I manage it? How will I tell people you came back? And then I put that all aside and I leave you behind and I get on with the rest of my life. Yeah, yeah. And I love that you kind of play into like, you know, you'll let anxiety run, you'll run alongside of it for a while, then you just push it aside. Because I think it's, I'm trying to think of how to say this, I think it's important that we like look into those thoughts that we're having, the negative thoughts that we're having, but also we need to learn that that's what they are, they're negative thoughts. And so it's good that you push that aside. I have the question, sorry, give me one second to regroup my thought. What do you think stops men from being honest about fear during like a major health crisis? Yeah, I think there's a lot of cultural mores that determine, you know, kind of what masculinity looks like in the United States and probably other cultures too. I should look to the United States, but I think, you know, there's a narrative about how men deal with problems and you just tough it up and you power through. And look, you heard bits and pieces of that as I talked about triathlon and wiping my face off. You know, that entire warrior mentality for me is actually, it's a pretty attractive ideology. as I tried to battle, and even the language we use, right, as I battled cancer, right, I was the warrior. And then as when treatment's done, you shift to survival, but I was the warrior battling cancer using, you know, technology made by General Electric and companies that also make weapons and you know, we like the war metaphors a lot. In fact, the American Cancer Society's logo actually has a sword right in the middle of it. And so we love that warrior narrative. And there was a part of it for me that was also really, really attractive. There was another part of me that said, well, how am I a warrior? Am I brave? People would say, well, you're so brave. I'm so brave. Why? Because I chose to get treatment. Like what's the alternative? That you don't and that you just let cancer have its way with you or? There were times when I was sitting in the infusion chair and people would say, you know, really you're battling strong. No, I'm sitting here in a chair under a blanket. Kimo's doing all the work. And so as attractive as that warrior mindset is, there's a vulnerability in all of this that we have to acknowledge, right? And as men and in some ways, acknowledging that vulnerability and saying there's a vulnerability there. I'm a little frightened. but I'm going to do whatever I can to come out on top actually gives you more power and makes you a little bit bolder. And so, you know, I think there are ways to find strength through vulnerability. One of the, one of the metaphors I use for that is it was one time when I was running with my triathlon coach and she said to me, she's like, sound like an elephant. I'm like, what are you talking about? She's like, your footsteps are so loud. Thank it's almost like you're stomping and I'm like, wow, I don't feel like I'm stomping. She is female and weighs a lot less than me. So she's like a gazelle running next to me, uh Effortlessly, I'm like stomping through, huffing and puffing, that kind of thing. And that's a pretty good metaphor for how you get through cancer. Can you stomp through it and power through it? And yes, I'm gonna do this. Yes, but you also can glide through it. And in triathlon, as you're swimming, you glide through the water, right? If you thrash about in the water, you're going to use all your energy so that there's nothing left for the bike. If you mash the pedals on the bike, as opposed to smooth circular strokes, you're going to get tired easier. If you're stomping out on the run when you've got 25 miles left to go, you're not going to make it to the end. So you find ways to change up your tempo, to change up your pace. to think about how you're maneuvering your way through triathlon or illness. And there are times that you're gonna use sheer brute force. There are times when you're going to back up and say, I'm really vulnerable right now. None of this may work and I've got to find some way to be at peace with that. And there's other times where you just adopt a meditative state and you... carve that space out for yourself to glide through whatever is happening to you. I absolutely love it. I love everything you said right there because it's so true. So if somebody came up to you today and they told you that they received a life-changing diagnosis, what advice would you give them? Take a deep breath, take it one step at a time. Assemble your support team. Even though Ironman is not the team sport, right? You're not on a team with anybody. And I don't, the way I view it is I'm not even competing with the other people around me. I'm competing with me. Like what did, I'm going to get the race I trained for and at the end of it, I want to be happy with it. If it doesn't go perfectly, I'll run another one. It will be okay. But nobody, nobody fights cancer alone. And You know, we live in a world filled with giving wonderful, joy-filled people. Go find them. If that's not what your circle looks like, make a different circle, but figure out five people that would be willing to walk beside you or who you want beside you in the event that you encountered some kind of trial or tribulation. Here's some things that uh people said to me that drove me crazy. One of the things was, don't worry, you're going to be okay. And although I'm too polite, what went through my mind immediately was, how do you know? Like, my doctors aren't even willing to guarantee that. In fact, I have a medical record that says that I'm at high risk for mortality. I'm not sure I'm going to be okay. My doctors aren't. How are you so sure? And, you know, who are you trying to convince? Me or you? And so saying to somebody, you you're going to be okay. We don't believe it. It's not true. And don't say it. Any sentence that begins with the words, at least is a non-starter as well. There were people who would say to me, at least you didn't lose my hair. Do you look at me? Do you honestly think I care about my hair? Right? There are so many other things that I'm worried about. The last thing I'm worried about is my hair. If I were a 30 year old woman, I might be more concerned about my hair. I'm not concerned about it. hair. And then the last thing I would say is there are people who will tell you their stories of their uncle Bill who took mega vitamins and he was miraculously cured of cancer or Aunt Phyllis who died a horrible ugly death due to cancer. Don't tell us any of those stories because they don't help. The good stories, we understand that not everybody's cancer journey is alike. In fact, nobody's cancer journey is exactly like another person's. and telling us about your long-lost aunt who actually passed away isn't going to uplift us either. so generally what I say to people is the most you can offer is if you have nothing else to say, I'm sorry this is happening to you, right? That goes a long way. I'm sorry that you're going through this. Being in closet, you can't cure it. You're not going to change it. But saying to somebody, I'm really sorry you're going through this goes a long way. I also tell people, Don't say, there's anything I can do, just let me know. We will never call you. It won't happen. If you want to do something for someone that's struggling, just go do it. Try not to make it something that's intrusive that they're going to feel uncomfortable with. But if you want to help, then just help. But if you leave it open-ended like that, you're forcing us to make decisions, you're forcing us to ask, and it's probably not going to happen. I will say that when people... do offer help, it's as much about them as it is about you. And I had a very, very close friend of mine who said to me, if you ever need me to drive you to chemo and just sit with you and talk with you there, I'm more than happy to do it. And he said, but I know you'll never take me up on that. And I didn't. And in retrospect, I regret that. And I regret it because I didn't need a ride to chemo. I didn't need someone to chat with. I was working on writing a book and doing other things. But he wanted to be a part of the journey and was basically asking me if he could be a part of the journey. And in my saying, no, no, I'm good. I got this. I robbed him and us of an opportunity to grow a little bit closer. So, you know, again, I don't think that any diagnosis is necessarily a gift because it has a lifelong impact. but there are things that you can take from this if you navigate it in a way that's heartfelt and genuine and open where you deepen those relationships. Yeah, it's so true. it's, I love what you said about, you know, when somebody's going through a crisis, just say, I'm sorry that you're going through that. Cause it's so true. It's like, I think back to my own life and I can't tell you how many times like I've had somebody say, well, just let me know if you need anything. It's like, yeah, you never call them. You never reach back out. Like, but then I have those friends that would just show up and do things. But it's. You're exactly right, I agree with that 100%. I love that you said that because I think it's not talked about enough. then it's like, but being on that, you sometimes like people come up to you and they feel awkward and don't know what to say. So I'm glad that you threw that out there, yeah. it. And look, I tried to keep a sense of humor about it. And so, you know, every time the nurses would start on an IV, I would pretend to pass out and they'd be like, what happened? Are you okay? Okay, I'm only messing with you. You know, my family was doing a photo shoot and some people on bikes and it was in a park and some people on bikes came up and they were annoyed that we were kind of in the path. You know, my kids were like, are we taking pictures because dad's checking out? And the cyclist looked at us and kind of gave us the look. And I said something along the lines of, don't hassle me. This is my make-a-wish. And so I found a way to keep it a little bit, you know, a little bit light and to talk about it. You know, I have friends that eat junk food and we go out and they would eat not so healthy or drink alcohol. Whereas I tried to steer clear of some of those things. And I would say them, and I got cancer, really? you know, keeping a sense of humor is really, really important. And, you know, I've figured out every cancer joke there is. And, you know, I tried to keep a sense of humor about this just to keep things light. And also so the people around me didn't feel awkward, didn't feel uncomfortable, recognize that, look, I'm not thrilled with the diagnosis. I'd give it back if I could, but I'm gonna make the best of it. And it is what it is. You know, you could be all gloom and doom about it and there are periods of time where you want to do that so that you're reflective and thoughtful. But there's other times where, geez, this now, really? Yeah, and it's funny. You have to that sense of humor though. I'm the same way with when I started having seizures. I know every seizure joke and I was with a group, a couple of people and I remember this was this is going to sound absolutely horrible of me doing this but I started just to be funny faking a seizure and I got up and started laughing when they started like coming towards me and My then fiance, who is now my wife, said that's not funny, don't ever do that again. So I can't do that, but I can get away with telling the jokes. Yeah, look, you have to maintain a sense of humor about some of these things. We're all going to have our things that happen to us and, you know, you navigate them the best you can. Yeah, and so I have just a few more questions here. What is one Iron Man lesson and one lesson from cancer you believe everyone should carry in their everyday lives? keep going, right? So that was it. were times when during races, even the last race I did in September, incredibly rough swim, lots of people didn't make the cutoffs, got pulled out of the water, that kind of thing. There were some dark moments in the swim, in the bike leg, in the run. And you acknowledge those dark moments and you say, sucks, but you just keep going. And before you know it, you're at the end and well, not that bad. And before you know it, you're signing up to do it all over again. And so, though there were some dark times in cancer and in racing, you plow through those times, you get through them, you distract yourself, you focus, you know, whatever technique you use, and then you just keep going in order to get through the other side. You know, one of the great things about my training was that it was money in the bank when something bad came along. And so I was able to be on this clinical trial. I think I probably had a better peace of mind than I would have had, certainly physically withstood the treatment a little bit. so, you know, if, if you haven't had a checkup recently, get a checkup, start an exercise program. I don't, it doesn't matter if it's walking around the block, you know, start there and, just, but just start. and work up from there. You don't have to compete in an Ironman to be fit physically or emotionally. There are other ways of doing that, but find your thing that works for you because sooner or later you're gonna need it. Yes, for sure. And it's like you don't know when that thing is gonna come. And so I'm curious, like what point did you realize that you wanted to write a book? Was there like an aha moment or how did that come into play? Yeah, I always felt like I had a book in me. I didn't know what it would be about. I actually thought it would be a more academic topic because I've worked on, you know, mental health issues and addiction and that kind of thing. And so, you know, I did a major publication as part of my dissertation about health behaviors and how we change our behaviors. And that was about the intent of folks that are using drugs, particularly those who are injecting substances. And so I thought it would probably be something along those lines. And then this all happened and I was very open. Once my kids knew and my family knew, I was very open about both diagnoses. In fact, I blogged about them and then, you know, I'm writing all these blog posts and I'm like, you know what, I can put this together, you know, and kind of string it together into telling my story, but also creating a guide for people that, you know, might be struggling with any number of things, whether it be cancer or some other challenge. And, you know, let me take a crack at this and like I said before, some chapters were easier than others, but my hope was that, you know, I would leave a legacy and give people something to lean on. you know, there are a number of people who have both read the book or heard my story. You know, two people today posted on social media. One is a longtime friend and she was putting off a colonoscopy and I'm like, No, no, you gotta do this. It is critical. And she went last week and I spoke to her a bunch of times before she went because of the anxiety and her test came back today and all is clear and she put it on Facebook and said, I wouldn't have gone if it weren't for these conversations. And then this morning, a guy I know really as an acquaintance, I do a lot of videos around fitness, not look at me running, but. what fitness does for you emotionally and in terms of your mental health and how it impacted my cancer journey. And he posted a picture up this morning of himself at the gym and said, I wasn't gonna go, I wasn't gonna do it this morning, but I saw your video and here I am at the gym doing my thing. And so every time I see something like that, or today it was two things, it's a reaffirmation of what I'm doing. And so if people stay a little bit healthier or... know, are better equipped to deal with life's challenges, that's, that makes life worth living. Yeah, isn't that amazing how just those little things, you know, that you push somebody to better themselves and you hear about it? That goes a long ways. It goes a very long ways. And then it's self-reinforcing because, you know, like tomorrow I'm going to skip a workout now, right? Talk about, you know, existential angst. And so it becomes self-reinforcing where I'm like, all right, so John went to the gym, Tracy got a colonoscopy. You know, I got to keep doing my part because I want to motivate more people. And so, you know, I saw, you know, both of those posts after I did a quick three miles on the uh on the treadmill this morning, but it also reinforces my own behaviors. know, exercise for me, exercise became part of my identity and who I was. wasn't something I had to look for time to do every day. It became part of my identity. And even as I got sick, people were like, yeah, you probably ran 10 miles before this meeting at eight o'clock. Right. And I'd have to say, you know, in some cases I just kind of laughed along and other cases I'd say, no, I got some health things going on. I only got in five this morning. Um, and so it becomes part of your identity and who you are. And now it's become part of the way I relate to and motivate other people. So it's good because it supports me in a way as well. That's great. I love hearing all this stuff. I love all the different stories that people just share or are willing to share. So I remember when you reached out to me, you mentioned you run a non-profit. I'd love for you to tell a little bit about that. Sure. So I've been in the not-for-profit space for 35 years. I run a not-for-profit now called Family and Children's Association based here on Long Island. It's 141-year-old organization founded by the Schuyler Sisters of Hamilton fame. Started out as an orphanage for runaway and homeless kids, and now we run 60 programs. You know that run the lifespan. So we still run shelters for runaway and homeless and traffic children. We also offer addiction treatment services, mental health services, the violence prevention all across Long Island. We serve about 36,000 people in any given year. We've got 360 staff and about as many volunteers. You know, my personal passion is in the addiction and mental health space. Um, but now I get to oversee and help support a, a whole bunch of programs that change, change lives. And, you know, as much as I talk about the adversity I've faced becoming an advantage in dealing with life, that's the same thing for some of the people that we are trying to lift up. are young people who have experienced generations of poverty who, you know, we equipped to be the first. young person in their family to finish high school or to go to college or to enter the military. And there are folks that struggle with long-term addiction who we help them find a path to recovery. And we only set the stage for their big wins and for their triumphs, but they actually achieve them. But I like to think that we have some small part in helping people out of poverty, helping them escape neighborhoods that have been neglected for too long, helping them. escape the prison that can be untreated addiction or anxiety and depression. And so I feel like, you know, my worlds have now come together. You know, I've gone from being this service provider that has the letters after my name to being someone who's overcome adversity myself. And it creates a different level of connection with the folks that we're serving. Absolutely love that. I really love what you're doing with the nonprofit there. think it's really cool I remember back when I was in my early 20s, I worked at a boy's house helping kids ages 13 to 18 with like, they came there for behavioral problems, addiction problems. And I remember the statistic of saying like, what was it like? Usually only one out of like 30 of these kids that come in are actually willing to get the help or going to get the help that they actually need. But feeling like I was a part of that, a part of something bigger than myself was really, what's the word I'm looking for, rewarding, extremely rewarding. So I can somewhat, not on the same level, but somewhat relate to helping people out. Yeah, look, it gave me as I was going through this, like purpose and drive and. You know, just meaning, like I said, I didn't miss, you know, five minutes worth of work and, I, I've got, you know, lots of people who work for me and I tell them, do as I say, not as I do, because I I'm actually a pretty strong proponent of work life balance. And, you know, I, our staff is 80 % female and. I never want my staff neglecting their own families in order to serve somebody else's. There's a way to find harmony in doing both. But we're doing a disservice if you're ignoring your own kids so you can spend 12 hours a day taking care of somebody else's. And so we've got to find that happy medium. So I do say to them, look, I probably stayed connected to the office as a coping mechanism. Don't make the same mistake. And even now I talk a little bit about, you know, I probably could have taken a day off and the world wouldn't come to an end. If you think about it, you know, the organization's been around for 141 years. I've only been there 11 and change. So they made it for 130 years without me. All was fine. so taking a day off shouldn't be the end of the world. Yeah, it's great what you're doing. today, what does Every Mile Matters truly mean to you? You know, I have more of an appreciation for time and what it means. have more of an appreciation about experiences. I'm pretty picky about how I spend my time. I look for experiences that are going to enrich my life and the lives of people around me. You know, when I was at the height of my training, I would say, and my coach would assign workouts, I'd say I... I have to run a five-miler today and now it's, get to run a five-miler today. And so it completely changes your perspective. You know, there's a, there's a saying in, in running and marathon training that there are, there are junk miles. just go out and run and there's no purpose and you're not really, you know, working towards anything. And I'm of the mindset that there are no junk miles, that they all matter that in running and in life, you know, every mile. makes a difference if you run it the right way. And every mile matters. Great, fantastic. Just kind of a last few follow-up questions here. Where can people find you? Sure, they can find the book on amazon barnesandnoblebookstore.org. You know, easy enough to find at all the major retailers. I have a website for the book called everymilematters.com. Intuitively enough, I've got a professional website at jeffreyrennels.com. And then like everyone else these days, I'm on all the socials, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. ah YouTube and yes, even TikTok. And so you can look me up there. And last thing here is we've discussed a lot of topics on tonight in our conversation. Is there anything you'd like to bring up that we did not cover? Travis, the only thing I'd say is if there's somebody listening or watching this that is struggling with something and you think I can be helpful to you, find me. People are doing that pretty often these days and I don't mind. Although I've got a degree, my cancer experience is one person's experience and... Um, if somebody needs to talk, I'm certainly not an oncologist. You have an oncologist presumably, but as someone who walked the road and walked the journey, I'm always happy to listen, always happy to talk. And so if you or someone, you know, out there are struggling, track me down and let's have a conversation. If I can help you in any way, I'm more than happy to do that. Awesome, well, Jeffrey, I feel like I could talk to you for hours and hours. You have a lot of great insight and I really admire this resilience that you've built up and that you've, you know, the obstacles you've had to overcome in life. And I want to thank you for coming on the show and spending some time with me. Great, thank you so much. Thanks for having me on and thanks for doing this podcast. Really important stuff. And thank you to all that's listening. If you resonate with what you hear, please subscribe and share. You can find us on all major podcast platforms. Thanks again. Until next time.