High-Functioning Depression Is the Lie No One Sees

In this episode of Overcome with Travis White, I sit down with writer Sarah Michelle Sherman to talk about the reality of high-functioning depression and what it actually looks like behind closed doors.

From being misdiagnosed for years to finally receiving a bipolar II and ADHD diagnosis, Sarah shares her raw journey through medication struggles, overdosing, and learning how to advocate for herself. We also dive into the “mean voice” that never fully goes away, the pressure to appear fine on the outside, and the complicated role motherhood plays in mental health.

This conversation challenges the idea that if someone looks okay, they are okay—and highlights why so many people suffer in silence.

If you’ve ever felt like you’re holding it together on the outside while falling apart internally, this episode is for you.

What We Discussed

•  What high-functioning depression really looks like 
•  Being misdiagnosed and struggling to find the right treatment 
•  The difference between depression, burnout, and bipolar disorder 
•  Living with the “mean voice” in your head 
•  Overdosing and the wake-up call that followed 
•  Why motherhood changed her relationship with suicidal thoughts 
•  The hidden reality behind appearing “fine” 
•  Learning to advocate for yourself in mental health care 
•  Why people reward pretending everything is okay 
•  The uncomfortable truth about healing and why it never fully ends

Learn More

Website: https://www.sarahmichellesherman.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sar.sher

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sarsherm

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-michelle-sandor/

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Transcript

0:01

Hello and welcome to Overcome with Travis White. This is a place for you to share your mental health stories. I am very excited to welcome today's guest. We are speaking with Sarah Michelle Sherman. Sarah is a writer whose work explores mental health, motherhood, and the emotional fallout of divorce with raw honesty and zero filter. Her essays have been featured in HuffPost, Today, and Scary Mommy. She's here to talk about healing heartbreak and the messy truth of rebuilding a life you didn't plan for. It's the one thing that really stuck out to me when I read this is raw. I like the raw stories. So, Sarah, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. Excited. I think we're going to have a great conversation and I don't want to waste any more time. So I'm just going to turn the microphone over to you and have you tell the audience about yourself. Okay. So yeah, in terms of mental health, I've had a bit of a journey. Around 17, I started experiencing, you know, what would later be explained to me as depression was... you know, it's hard to say what was normal teenage insecurities and problems that arise with every, you know, teenage girl. But I felt like there was something stronger going on. There was, you know, a dark cloud over everything, so to speak, and just a really, you know, we all have internal dialogue. but the voice that I was hearing was the meanest voice I'd ever heard. So battling that became extremely challenging. So when I started to talk about this with my parents a little bit, my pediatrician at the time was the first person to put me on an antidepressant and that... when everything sort of, I guess, started in terms of really looking into my mental health and what it means for me and what it was going to mean for my life moving forward. So for the next few years, for the next few years, I experimented with a bunch of different SSRIs because for a long time it was, I was told I just had, you know, depression and not just, but was told I had depression and anxiety. And so that's what was being treated on top of some insomnia. So for a long time I was taking SSRIs and I was taking Ambien and still not feeling better. And Then things got real bad. My senior year of college, I overdosed on Ambien after drinking a lot of alcohol and just having a very bad night. It was definitely a wake up call for me and for the people around me and made the decision then. you know, to actually see a specialist, you know, a psychiatrist and really try to figure out what was going on with me. From there, I still tried different SSRIs, but thankfully I eventually ended up with a psychiatric nurse practitioner who was the first person who really took the time to understand my story and what I was experiencing. And that's when I got the diagnosis of bipolar and ADHD. And... that I think those diagnoses saved my life. So do you have the bipolar one or two disorder? So I know there's a little bit of difference too. Okay. which, so when I was first diagnosed, was just told bipolar, but I had some, little bit of trouble with that because I didn't feel that I necessarily had a blatant manic episode. And then kind of slowly over the years, I and my doctor and my the different therapists that I saw started to recognize these hypomanic episodes, which, you know, I didn't really know what they were, you know, because it looks, they look different for everybody. And for me, it could look like rearranging all of my furniture. could look like. a shopping spree, it you know what I mean? It could look like a bunch of different things that aren't necessarily screaming, you know, mania. but you know, impulsivity and, uh, you know, functioning with less and less sleep and things like that. Um, so finding the right medication and understanding more what was going on chemically, uh, was huge. for me. It changed everything. can only imagine and I've heard I've heard too many people say that it's finding that balance and it's like I was lucky I was able to find the first thing that worked I didn't need anything like way harsh but I hear stories all the time well it took me like six different types of medication to finally get the right thing to work Yeah. And it's, it's a very difficult process and weaning off of some of these drugs is the most bizarre, terrible feeling in the world. mean, there's like, I remember getting off of effectser and that's the first time I experienced those, like, they feel like zaps in your brain and it's it's awful and you're like breaking it down into like, you know, little like a smaller piece each day, you know, trying to get it out of your system. And it's tough. And what I think I was fortunate that I over the years became very aware of when I was when medications were not working for me and when I was starting to slip back into those depressive states. Because I think when it gets the most dangerous is when you aren't able to recognize it. So I was able to, you know, really become an advocate for myself and became more more comfortable speaking up when I didn't feel right. I think that's like the most important thing too is until you figure out how to speak up for yourself and I honestly I want to say trust yourself to degree because when you're feeling that deep dark depression there's there's no trust there you don't you don't care so that's that's an important step like so kudos to you Thanks, it's a work in progress. Yes, absolutely. And I think that's, you know, it's, that was something I had to kind of come to terms with, which didn't happen right away, which is, you know, the fact that this is going to be something that I deal with my entire life. There's been times, you know, stretches of time where I've you know, gone a really long time without a bad depressive episode or, you know, less hypomanic episodes. And I think, you know, think I'm good, think I'm cured and start to wean off medications and then quickly realize, no, I need these medications in order to survive. Yes, for sure. And what was I going to say? I just lost my thought. Oh, okay. I got it back. Sorry. ah So like in those times that you're, you know, the deep dark depressive states, what does survival mode look like for you in every, like that everyday life of those deep dark places? it's a tough question. Uh, I think most recently it's, holding on to the fact that I know I've gotten through it before. and if I'm able to latch onto that, then that's, I guess what carries me through, but sometimes it's really hard to tap into that. But I think having, you know, having a really good therapist, who I feel I can reach out to at any point in time, having a support system, you know, with friends and family, at least having one or two people that, you know, I know I can go to when I'm feeling that low and they're gonna you know, no one knows what to say and there's not anything that anybody really can say to pull you out of that. And people just want to comfort you and that's what you need. You need to know you're not alone. But it's tough. Yeah. And I'll, I'll say, cause I go through some of these depressive, modes as well. And I came out of a kind of a dark one. lasted about two months where it was just like, you know, like, screw this. Like, I don't want to deal with this bull crap every day, but it's like, it all goes back to, I think for me, it's probably my kids, my family. I'm like, you know what? I have so much to live for. I need to just figure out how to push things aside. And then I think also once I realized like my therapist once told me, no, depression and your anxiety are never going to go away. You have to, your goal is to figure out ways to deal with them every day and reduce them. yeah. And I think the, you know, the parenting aspect of this is huge because for me, and this is kind of a dark reality, I guess, but becoming a mother kind of changed things for me in terms of my mental health. because of the fact that it took suicide off the table for me. At least as far as how I'm managing my mental health right now and I've been stable for a long time. I haven't been suicidal in a long time. But thinking of my son, it... it just makes it not an option anymore for me. And it's sad, you know, it's sad to think that I did think of it as an option at times. But I'm, you know, so grateful for my son for a million reasons, but he does, he keeps me alive. He keeps me going, you know. Yeah, that's awesome. And I love, you know, that it's like that unconditional love that the child brings to you. And it's like, this is it. This is a reason to live. And I have a friend that he tells me all the time, that's his only reason why he's still alive is because of his daughter. I'm like, that's sad, dude. Like you have a lot more people than that, but I can understand where you're coming from. So would you go? uh ahead. Natsuka, go. No, just, think it's, I think it's with the children, it's hard because it goes back, you know, the whole idea of, you know, suicide being a selfish act, you know, and I think when... You know, we think of ourselves as parents. We can't, we just cannot be selfish. That's, you can't, um you have to think of your kid first. But I have mixed feelings about the idea of suicide being selfish. So I don't know. You've read my mind. I do too. I have very mixed feelings and it's like, because I've suffered from suicidal ideation myself. There's been times where I've had stuff planned. I have a problem with like dissociating. There's a time where I was dissociating. I had something hanging up in the garage and I was ready to do something and my wife caught me. It was like three in the morning and I don't remember it. She just told me. This was after we had kids so And she's like, you need to get help. Like this is, this is it. And I've had that conversation many times with her. Like I, I'm indifferent about it. Like I think it's selfish, but not at the same time because nobody knows what that person's going through. Exactly. And I think, and I've written about this too, you know, the idea of physician assisted suicide for people who are in, you know, physical pain or, you know, are suffering from something, you know, that can be tested or, you know, proven, so to speak, you know, and a terminal illness, but who's to say that depression or bipolar or schizophrenia are not terminal illnesses as well? And I think it's, is a horrible thing to do to the people that love you. But that being said, I don't think the people that love you would want you to be in that much pain. And that's, you know, it's not something that anyone can ever understand. And it's not something I wish everyone understood, you know. I totally agree. I also get really bad anxiety. So my wife beforehand would be like, you know, why are you acting like this? And I was like, you don't know until you suffer through it. Like you, I can't really explain it because there's really almost sometimes no words for it. And then I, this last year we went through some stuff and she is anxious now. And I never thought she'd be the anxious person. It's good because even though we have anxieties over different things. So that's good. But I was like, you finally understand where I'm coming from now. She's like, yeah, I can finally see it. So that was, it was like helpful, but it sucked at the same time. Yeah, it's a double edged sword. Yeah. So do you do you feel like motherhood complicates depression or do think it kind of puts it at ease? complicates it. I think it just presents so many more opportunities to doubt myself, I guess, you know, and being really hard on myself is something I've done my whole life. you know, the depression. you know, makes it worse and makes it harder to quiet, you know, all that self doubt. But in some ways it's a really good distraction sometimes, you know, parenting is an impossible job and, you know, oh there's a million things that you can do wrong at any given point and it's terrifying. But it gives you purpose. It gives you a reason to get out of bed because you have no choice, you know? And for me, it's like, don't, you know, I don't wanna ever disappoint my son. I don't you know, It's a hard thing too, to think about like, don't want him to see me sad, but you know, being sad as a part of life. Um, and you have to understand the scope of human emotions, you know, and to, so it's, it's really tricky. and obviously they're, you know, when he gets to a certain age, you know, we'll have, you know, these tough conversations about mental health issues and things like that. Cause you know, I, I worry for him. to down the road if a lot of this stuff is genetic. So that's scary. And I've even wondered sometimes, he knows I take medicine. I wrote about this once too, like when he was really little, was... came into the bathroom when I was getting ready and started shaking one of my prescription bottles like a rattle. And it's like, and he's learning to say the word medicine. And, you know, I envisioned in that moment, like, you know, one day he asked me like, what are you taking this medicine for? Like, are you sick? You know, and it's, I think about how I'll answer, you know, that question. It's heavy. Yeah, that's a hard conversation. I'm sure those are some that I'll have to have later on. And I've actually never thought about it until you just said that. it's like, how do I explain that? Because there's times where I know that my kids, so all my kids are six and under, or yeah, six and under. And so there's times where I know that my kids know that I'm a little bit off, like whether it's... or my, I'm just being short that night. And there's times where I feel really guilty for not being as present as I want to be. Yes. Yeah, that's, yeah, that for me is huge. And that's where I get the most frustrated with my mental health issues because I think, you know, generally speaking, I have a pretty good handle on things. And like I was saying before, like I'm able to recognize, you know, when I start slipping, but it's always there and there's always this, there's always this voice in my head that's being mean to me. It just depends on how quiet I can get it, you know? But it frustrates me because it takes me out of the moment sometimes, you know? all I wanna be is with my four-year-old and... watching what he's doing and paying attention because it's changing every single second and it's amazing to witness and I hate the fact that there's this thing I can't control taking me away from that sometimes. Yeah, I totally, totally agree. Question though, do you have any methods that you use to shut up those voices that are going on in your head? know, maybe telling you you're not good enough or telling you whatever they are. Um, I wish I did. I really, uh, it's something I struggle with a lot. I don't, the only way I guess I know how to deal with them is to write about them. You know, what they're, you know, it's, it's how I make sense of, you know, most difficult things that I go through is, is writing about them and I think exploring the thoughts that come to me is important for my, just how I'm going to manage this for the rest of my life. It's about being honest and not, I talk about this in therapy, like you can't, the more you tell yourself, don't think that, you're. you're gonna think it, you it's like you have to embrace, you know, these thoughts and kind of just do the work to, I guess, understand where they're coming from, but also know that they are not necessarily the truth, you know, and it can get tricky. Yes, that is for sure. I'm, very guilty of having those same thoughts and voices, like, and it's most time. Mine are like, you're not good enough. You can't do this. Just like really negative thinking. But I want to, I have a question about your writing though. Do you have any fears that come up when you write so honestly about mental health or other things? Yeah, it's always, you know, I worry about hurting other people. So that's always a concern. And the more I write and the more relationships that I explore in my writing, it gets harder and harder because in order to tell my truth, to tell my story, you know, there's people that are not great characters in the story of my life, you know, and I just feel very strongly that I have to tell my truth. And I think I can do that in a way that, you know, protects the people that need protecting. But There's some people that don't need to be protected and I can't worry about them. And in terms of talking about my mental health struggles, I'm so passionate. I wish more people talked about their mental health struggles. I mean, we're getting better and better all the time, but it's, there's obviously still this stigma. There's people who dismiss it and downplay it and believe people are using it as a crutch or an excuse. And it needs to stop. It's crazy to me that all these other things that happen to the body, we take... we take seriously and we understand that these people need treatment and medication and there's no judgment for it. And when it comes to our minds, there's this judgment and it doesn't make any sense. You know, why would anyone choose this? You know. I love that. And I think the same thing, because it's like, you really think that I'd want to deal with this every day. It's not something that I want to carry on on my shoulders and have this burden. I want to touch based on one important thing that you said though there. And then you led into a good question. Actually, let's go to the question because I like this more. Why do you think we reward people for pretending like we're fine? You kind of spoke about, wasn't that like, know, society looks down on people for having mental health situations. And in the end, I feel like, oh, okay, well you're acting fine. So you must be fine. And so there is to me in my mind, like a reward for it. Why do you think society does that? I think because when people are honest about their emotions in a, in a way that is not, you know, happy and joyful, it scares people. And I think it makes people uncomfortable. And I think it's easier for people, to look the other way and not, you know, address these things. It's just like, you you think of like when you run into somebody in the supermarket and you say like, Hey, Bob, how you doing? And if they say anything other than like, fine, how are you? You're like, God, I didn't, I didn't want to hear all about Bob's problems today. You know, it's like, it's just, it's easier, you know, um, and it's more comfortable I think. And, but it's also a huge part of the problem because high functioning people can be severely depressed. I mean, think about all the, you know, the celebrity suicides that get attention because, you know, no one would ever know. And it's like, that's the whole point. You know, so to make assumptions is just kind of silly for anyone. Yes, yes, 100 % true. What do you think, I guess from your perspective, what does high functioning mental health actually look like behind closed doors? so for me, you know, there have, you know, there's been times when my depression and has kept me from getting out of bed and I've called in to work, you know, but for the most part, I always did what I had to do and I went to work and I went to school and I, know, as much as I would be Um, you know, in grad school, freaking out, telling myself I wasn't smart enough to be there. There was no way I could ever do it. You know, crying the night before, you know, a paper was due because I have a complete failure. You know, that's what I'm telling myself. And, um, but I, you know, I get the paper done and I get an A, you know, it's no one would know. Um, and. For me, those moments of or those episodes of hypomania could result in achievements for me. It could make me really motivated. There's been times and I don't realize it until after, but one night I sent out like 10 pitches to different. you know, magazines trying to get essays published. And then, you know, a few days later, I'm like, yeah, I think I was a little manic, you know, but it can be a good thing, you know, it can make you clean your house, you know, it's, it presents itself in a million different ways, you know, but I think just the whole idea that you just, you can never, you can't assume by what people are, you know, presenting on the outside, you know, and how well they're doing. It's like I went, it reminds me, I went to this one, I've been to many therapists over the years and unfortunately a lot of bad ones. And I have an amazing one now, thank God. But I went to one, it was my first session and Um, you know, she says, you know, tell me a little bit about what's going on, you know, and I just say, I've been, you know, really depressed and, you know, tell her a little bit. And she said, but you're so tan and pretty. What do you mean? Like, what's the problem? You know, and I, this is going to go well, you know, but it's like, how are you working in mental health? And you can say something like that, you know, but. Yes, I've learned throughout the years that you, it's like the whole cliche quote, don't judge a book by its cover. Okay. You really can't like, and it's, and since I started this podcast, especially it's like, you have no idea what people are going through. The person sitting next in the cubicle next to you work. you know, could be suicidal and you have no idea and it goes back to the whole, I guess another cliche thing, fake it till you make it. Right. Mm Yeah. And that's the thing, because we have, we don't have a choice, you know, we have to make money, we have to provide for our children, we have to like, we have to keep going, you know, and it's hard to admit that you need help, you know, I think, and it shouldn't be, but it is. And, you know, it goes, I think, back to, you know, this whole idea that, you know, having these mental health struggles makes you like a weaker person. you like you can't cope as well or you're, you know, too sensitive. And I think more often than not that because I am so in touch with my emotions and I have a lot of empathy and I, you know, I think it makes me a more compassionate person and it makes me... you know, more accepting and more patient with people at times, you know, but it's, I don't know, it's the weirdest thing because it's like you want people to understand, but you don't want them to suffer, you know, it's. All right. yes it is very hard. And when you started, you know, when you stopped curating your pain and started telling the truth, was there anything, any of the, any changes that you noticed? Like what was that like? So the best thing that comes out of my writing is whenever someone reaches out and says that they connected to it and that they went through something similar and it made them feel better knowing that someone else understood. And that's kind of always my goal is to impact someone in a way that even, you know, even though it's a fleeting moment, if it makes them feel less alone than I did something right, you know, and if telling my brutal, raw, ugly truths is what makes that happen, then I'm happy to do it. That's a good goal to have. think just touching that one person, even if it's out of every hundred people, that's where I honestly find the most inspiration for myself. So I oh, that one person found me and helped them out. So this is great. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And how do you know though, how, let me think of how to work this better. How can you tell the difference between burnout versus being depressed? Hmm. I think burnout, there would be more evidence of why you were feeling that way, you know? And whereas like depression, I think it's harder to justify, I guess, you know I mean? In some ways, it's like, You know, if you're burned out, means that you have too much on your plate. You you pro you're doing too many things. You have too many responsibilities. you know, you're pushing yourself too hard. You're not sleeping enough, you know, things like that. Whereas depression, can just take over with no warning and cripple you, you know? and there's no reason for Yes, totally, And it's, I can't tell you how many times that I've thought, you know, sat there and thought whether it's depression or anxiety was like, okay, why? Like, is this even going on? Like I have nothing to even like worry about right now because things are in a good spot. I nothing to be depressed about like jobs going okay. Like I'm doing this, I'm doing that. I have kids that love me. I have a family like, and it's just like, bam, here we are. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like just a waiting game at that point. What will tomorrow bring, right? Exactly. Yeah. I question though back to your writing just because I love what you do, writing so rawly for that rough writing that you do for and open up to people. Was writing something you always wanted to do or did you just kind of fall into it? How did that come about? I've always wanted to write. guess I sort of, I think my like moment I attribute to it is in seventh grade, I wrote a short story and got some praise from my English teacher and felt good about myself for the first time. And then, Uh, but it was really in college that I started taking creative writing classes and, started to really develop my voice and explore, writing, just brutally and honestly, because I was feeling so much at the time. It was the only way I could, kind of process it and, And it was actually like what connected me to two of my professors who became my mentors and really made me feel like I had a little bit of talent and had something to say, which was important. And actually one of my professors in college, an undergrad, it was the first personal essay class I ever took and I was just, I loved, you know, the style. I didn't even really know what a personal essay was, you know, and um was just discovering this new genre and was just really impressed by the professor and the work he had done and he had taught in prisons and he just had incredible stories and he suffered from mental health issues. And I wrote an essay for his class and in it I was writing about being depressed. I wrote something in it, something along the lines of, I wish I could stop breathing like just for a second, just to see if I would fight. or something like that. Like I wish I could not breathe just to see if I would fight to breathe, you know? And the professor was worried about me and ended up getting like a knock at my door from the, know, resident director doing like a wellness check on me. But it helped me. It got me to talk, you know. to a counselor there at the school. You know, it just like got me to be even more honest about what was going on. And it was also nice to know that, you know, I had someone who gave a shit. Right? And it's, I've actually never heard a story where a professor actually cared that much. All the professors, I don't remember having one that like would even think twice about something that I wrote. So that's, that's really cool. Yeah. Yeah, I was lucky to have a few really incredible professors, both in undergrad and in my graduate program, who just really made me feel seen and understood and like I could be a writer, which was everything to me. That's really cool. It kind of goes back to what you said at the very first of show, having people in your corner. And that's, I think that is means for every aspect of life, not just mental health. Like it should be, to me, it should be everything. Agreed. Yeah. And these are people. You sure do. And it's like, it's not just the, it's the right people. It's like you need those people. think that's important because it's the right people. want somebody who's willing to listen to you when you just need to talk. Somebody who's willing to give you advice when you need it. But that's not just any advice. Like you need the raw truth. Like you need people to be blunt once in while. Yeah. And you need people who, you know, will carry all the versions of you, you know, um and yeah, and not judge you for it. Exactly. And it's, the people who are judging you and it's like, well, well, it's something about them. It's not you. Yeah, they're not your people. And I actually went through kind of an intense therapy session about this. And I remember he's like, well, if that's going on, you need to let go of this person. You shouldn't have any contact with them. And so at that time, I remember I started being more upfront with people and saying like, no, like I don't need to be treated this way. If you want to treat me this way, like I'm going to cut all ties. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, yeah, the more honest you are with yourself about what you need from people. And I think it's important to like set, to have different expectations for different people and the roles they play in your life. And, you know, you have to, you have to have different relationships with every single person in your life and you and each of those people can help you, you know, in different ways and love you in different ways. And, you know, some of them will be better when you're feeling down and some of them will be better when you're just want to have a good time, you know, but you need to you need them all. And yeah, sometimes it's hard to figure out those people. remember this too. And cause I have like certain expectations with people, whether family members or friends or whatever. And it's my anxiety. Sometimes it's like, those expectations aren't met, like it hits me in the face, like a pound of bricks. like, well, why didn't this, why did it happen this way? So at one point my therapist was like, no, you need to, at some point with some of these people, you need to lower your expectations. Yeah. because otherwise this part of you is always going to fail. Yeah, you're always going to be disappointed. all the time and I was and I was like, and as soon as I was able to do that and set the correct boundaries, I realized like some of my relationships got better. Yeah. Yeah. So I just have honestly a few more questions here for you. What's one uncomfortable truth about healing people don't talk about? uncomfortable truth about healing. I think. Wow, that's a good question. I think the thing about healing is that for me, I don't, I'm not to a place yet where I, I certainly don't feel healed. I don't even know that I would say that I'm in the process of healing because I still feel like I have so much to figure out. And I think that that's maybe the uncomfortable truth is that there is just so much uncertainty. which makes it really terrifying because there's so many, you know, there's so many unanswered questions when it comes to this stuff. And I just think it makes it, you know, it makes it more painful. think things that have proof are easier, you know. very well said because what you reminded me of something that I can't remember exact the exact quote but something was said to me once about healing it's like are we ever fully healed like do we ever really get there it's like to think about it we we really don't it's just a continuous journey Yeah, and I think, yeah, because, you know, there's, life should be full of ups and downs and, you know, and there's always gonna be things that, you know, break you down and make you feel like you failed or that you can't go on. but there's also gonna be things that bring you joy and make you feel like things are possible and that's what you gotta hang on to, I guess. Yeah, I agree. And you just made me think of something really dumb, it's, you you're in those moments of joy and it's like, then something bad happens, like, okay, well, does this shit ever end? Does it ever end? exactly. And I don't think it ever does, you know, I think it's just, I don't know, for me, I'm just so grateful that I, you know, have been given platforms to be able to write about it. And it's what I plan to continue doing. I think it's the I think it'll be what helps me battle this for the rest of my life, is having this outlet. And I think my goal is to publish a book and reach more people. like we were saying before the show, it's just breaking the stigma. It just, the conversations. m around these topics need to continue to evolve and there needs to be more awareness and there needs to be more compassion. Yeah, I agree. it's, it's, I think the thing to mention there is starting those conversations and making it, it's going back to something you said. I think at the beginning is making it so people don't feel alone. And sometimes when somebody feels that way, that's when they come out of their box or their dark spot and start telling their story. And I think that's like one of the things that we need to do going forward is just continue telling our stories. Absolutely. So, where can people find you? sarahmichelle-sherman.com and my Instagram handle is sarahmichelle-sherman as well. looks like I just lost my It's okay though. It's the last question, so. eh We've just had a lot of discussion here, mainly about depression and mental health. Is there anything else that you'd like to bring up that we did not cover tonight? I don't think so. think I just, you know, I would encourage everybody. to, you know. Reach out to people that you care about and make sure they know that they're loved and that they're seen and that they're valued because you never know what someone's going through and you never know the voices that are going on inside their head. It can, you can save someone's life. And I think it's just important to, you know, I tell my son all the time, you know, to be kind. And he'll say to me, why are you always telling me that? And it's like, because it is the most important thing. Yes, very important, very well said. Well, sir, thank you so much for coming on the show. Sorry about these last minute technical difficulties. And I do want to say I admire the rawness that you present and I love what you're doing, telling such, know, rawness, having such, what's the word I'm looking for? just the way you're writing your essays because it's like not very many people do that. They don't show that raw side of themselves and I think it's important. So thank you. I appreciate that a lot. And thank you to all those that are listening. If this episode resonated with you, please share it and give us a follow. And that'd help us out a lot. Thanks again. Until next time.