Choosing Yourself: Breaking Free From Expectations and Rediscovering Joy | Catherine Crestani

What happens when your life looks successful on paper—but no longer feels like your own?

In this episode, Travis talks with Catherine Crestani, intuitive healer, author, and founder of Willow Healing, about the courage it takes to choose yourself. Catherine shares how she walked away from an unhappy marriage, stepped back from successful businesses, faced burnout, and began rebuilding a life guided by joy, intuition, and personal truth.

Together, they explore the expectations that keep people stuck, why healthy relationships begin with a strong connection to yourself, and how technology can either support genuine connection or quietly replace it. Catherine also discusses her novel, My Virtual Obsession, and its exploration of loneliness, emotional attachment, and the blurred line between digital and real-life relationships.

In this conversation, you'll hear:
• How social conditioning can disconnect you from what you truly want
• Why success and stability do not always create fulfillment
• How to recognize when a relationship, career, or lifestyle is no longer aligned
• The importance of making space for joy, self-trust, and honest connection
• How to use technology as a tool without allowing it to replace your voice
• A practical first step for reconnecting with yourself

Catherine's message is simple and powerful: it's okay to choose yourself.

Learn more about Catherine Crestani:
Willow Healing: https://willowhealing.org/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/willowhealingsh/
My Virtual Obsession: https://willowhealing.org/my-virtual-obsession

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https://overcomepod.com

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Transcript

0:36

Catherine, why don't you go ahead and tell the audience about your journey? Well, let's like how far back do we go? well, I guess the biggest thing about my journey is that it was one of learning how to keep choosing myself. So I got my first marriage, I got married quite young.~ I was a ~ overachiever, but had to be the straight A student, you know, that was that was me, you know, and if I didn't get that, but I was also very good at self-sabotaging. So I would be doing really, really well. And then I'd walk into an exam and just forget everything, even though I knew everything. So I was very good at sabotaging myself at the like the last hurdle. So that was something I had to overcome. But then in my marriage, I found that, you know, I was ticking all the boxes. So, you know, I got married, we had built the house, and then I built my own business. Well, in a partnership and also my own business. And everything from the outside looked amazing. So my backgrounds as a speech language pathologist, I was very good at my job. ~ you know, very much worked a lot with children and their families. And also, you know, when I say I was very good at my job, but also running businesses. So my business partnership, my business partner and I, we built that up to a seven figure business. And then with my own company, which I built from the ground up, ended up being a six figure business. So from the outside, everything looked amazing. And I ticked all those boxes and everyone was like, wow, your life's amazing. But it really wasn't. So in my what was happening with my first marriage was I was staying longer and longer at work to avoid being at home, which is why my business was thriving, because I was putting all my attention and energy there. And then And then I realized what I was doing and I just couldn't stay. I was actually numbing myself to be in the relationship. I was not myself anymore. I'd given up so much on myself that I actually didn't know who I was. So whilst everyone thinks I had this happy marriage and it looked all great and ticked on the boxes, I truly wasn't who I was anymore. And someone said to me, You actually just stopped laughing one day. And you know, from just from us just talking, I am very much someone that was happy to laugh and to share joy and that sort of thing as well. So from there, when I stepped out of my my marriage and made that decision, I realized how much of myself I had lost and went to rediscovering myself and was truly happy. Like people were like, wow, have you lost weight? And I joke and say, yeah, I lost 80 kilos.~ which is what my h ex-husband weighed, which I don't know what that's in Imperial. But, you know, and then from there what happened was then I realized that my business partnership wasn't okay because I put in so much energy and suddenly I actually didn't want to be there all the time. I wanted a life. ~ so then my business partnership started to fall apart. But in the meantime, I actually met my husband now because I was happy. And then again, I had built up my company. stepped out of my business partnership. I call that my nasty divorce. And then I still wasn't fulfilled. I had everything. You know, I had a house. I had, you know, we had the cars. We had our our son. We had, you know, my life looked great on paper, but in the inside, I just never felt fulfilled. And I just thought the next thing I had to do was keep doing the next business goal or the next business goal. But what that led me to was burnout, adrenal fatigue, all those fun things. Because I was sacrificing my happiness thinking that's what I had to do because everyone else was telling me this is what your life should look like. Yeah, it's like you you follow the norm. Well, what society claims is the norm when I don't necessarily believe it is, but you f end up following in those footsteps because that's what you're right? Yeah. And this is, you know, there's so much conditioning that we don't actually realize we go through, right? So we have these are the expectations. This is how your life should like, you know, you might finish finish school and then go to college or university. And then, you know, you go your career and you've got to get your career. hang on, you're a female. All right. You've got to have children in there somewhere too. and make sure it's before you're 30 because you know, otherwise your eggs are gonna dry up and you're gonna be this old mom and you can't have children. You know, and you haven't got the perfect partner yet. hang on, this is what the partner should look like in your life. and and you you need two car you need at least two cars, there's two of you, you know. So there's all these things that just keep coming in. And I know there's cultural beliefs that come in as well.~ you know, and It just makes it really hard to f hear you sometimes amongst all that noise. I call it noise because it is noise. Mm-hmm. It's just everyone else's opinion of how your life should look like. But the only person's opinion that should matter is yours. Yeah, yeah, that's that's what I tell everybody about like naming children. When it comes to naming your children, it doesn't matter anybody else's preference. It's it's your child in the end. Having worked, however, in saying that Travis, having worked with with a lot of children over the years, I can't even tell you how many thousands of children, please just spell their name in a logical way. I I I feel like we have a problem with that in where I where I live. It's~ So it got to a point where I'm like, okay, so it's Michael. So M-I-C-H-A-E-L, right? That's typical Michael. Mm-hmm. no, it's A I K E L. I'm like,~ okay. You know, but yeah. So then you're then you're playing the guessing game. Yeah. Yep, I I've seen that before. Yeah. So even the most simplest names I just learnt to just ask for the spelling. But you know, we we digress. But the Yep, yep. point is, exactly. You name your child what you want. Like we gave my son a really short name because I was I know how hard it is for kids to learn to write their names. So I was like, no, let's just give him a short one. Let's just give him a short one. So then it's really easy. Exactly, exactly. So, you know, again, what What do you feel you need to do? And that's really what I like teach people that I'm working with. And you know, a lot of the clients that I have come into my life, even at the moment, they're all going through some sort of big endings or transitions, whether it's a relationship, Mm-hmm. a career, or whatever it is, because they've gotten to a point in life and they realize actually, I I don't have any joy. Like I am in this monotonous routine, I get up, I go to work, I come home. I go to bed and then I do it five days a week, six days a week for some people, you know, and it's there's no joy there. There's no excitement and it's there's no passion. And when you're not excited about life, everything else falls apart too. Yeah, for sure. So when you were going through all this, was there any defining moment where you realized you could not keep living this~ well, I went on a bit of a spiritual journey in all of that too, and realized I had like psychic gifts and things like that. which I kind of always had. I just didn't realize that's what it was. I'm very big on following my gut instinct. I'm very good at making decisions with my gut,~ which is my intuition. So, you know, through through that it came to, I remember this moment. And I had all my staff, like I took them for the we went through this beautiful Christmas ~ party, like at the end of the year. And I just remember sitting there being so grateful because I had, I think, eight or nine staff working for me. Like it was a really just beautiful moment. I'm like, wow, you know, like, you know, I wonder what's next. Like this is so exciting. But then I was ignoring all the facts that I wasn't happy anywhere else, you know, because I so much of my energy again was going to the business. And then when I started going through my spiritual journey, my husband actually said to me, You're not actually happy running the business. Why don't you just sell it? And I'm like, no, it's my baby. You know, I made it from the ground up. Where are we gonna get money coming from? And where's the income gonna be? And, you know, X, Y, and Z, you know, all the reasons why I can't possibly sell it. You know, I just, you know what, I'm just gonna manage it. That's my plan. I'm gonna manage it. And, you know, then I can step back and have a bit more of a life. Anyway, so then part of my A spiritual kind of entry point was my company actually fell apart. So in the space of three months, at the start of each month, I had three staff resign in a week. Completely different reasons. ~ so the first time I was incredibly broken, I want to say. I was on the floor in a ball crying because I knew I had to start to reclaim my health because my health wasn't okay. I knew I wanted to be home at war with my family. And all of a sudden I have three staff resigned in a week. And how am I gonna possibly find new staff to replace them? But also I'm gonna have to pick up the shortfall because that's always what happened. It was always came back to me. So then a month later, in the space of a week, another three staff resigned. So different reasons again. And then I got really angry and I was just really, really angry. And then a month later, in the space of a week. another three staff resigned. Meanwhile, I still haven't replaced the first ones. Okay, just keep this in mind. And I went, you know what? I'm done. You know, either I'm selling this company or when the lease is up for out where we're I'm just signing it off and I'm done. And and I'm shutting the doors. And these people that are leaving, they're not meant to be in my life anymore and I'm done. And it was this huge weight, Travis, that just lifted off me. And I did end up selling my company, which was amazing. And then I kept working there and then realizing this definitely isn't the career I want to be doing, even without the business pressure. You know, but at the same time, it was that moment that I went, you know what, this isn't right. So then even my husband and I sat down, we're like, right, we don't have as much income coming in. What do we actually want our life to look like? Do we want to keep busting our backsides off to pay this mortgage and everything else? Or are we going to change it. So we sold a car. We have we're a one-car family. We make it work. You know, we ~ we're Mm-hmm. selling our house. You know, all these sorts of things we're redefining what our life will look like. And we don't know where we're going next. Someone was asking me that today and I said, I don't know. I said, I think we'll end up at my dad's temporarily. Then we might build a tiny home and live on their farm. I don't know. I said, but that's the whole point. I'm actually just excited to have those options. And be able to create our life with what aligns for us rather than what everyone else has told us our life should look like. And it was, I think a couple of years ago, someone said to us, like, ~ you know, it must be such an anchor having a house and a mortgage. And I went, ~ my God, it is. Because I love traveling and I love going to new places. But when you're always worrying about Okay, am I gonna have enough income coming in to pay like the mortgage while I'm not working? You know, X Wine says so I can go explore, then it c takes away from the the magic of that too. Yeah, for sure. And I actually love that you guys are willing to make those sacrifices needed to protect yourselves, to to make yourselves happier. Well, I don't even know if it's a sacrifice, Travis, because it's like, yeah, I don't actually need that in my life. Just let it go. You know, so it's you know, Yeah. So in the end if if it's that looked that and way it is a a sacrifice, yeah. Well, that's like my dad was like, What are you gonna do with all your furniture? You know, are you gonna put it in a storage unit? I was like, Well, I don't know. I don't know if we're gonna end up in a tiny home because then we'll sell all our furniture, or are we gonna, you know, are we gonna go in a house because then we'll keep our furniture? And then I was like, I actually don't care. If someone came in and went, we want to keep all the furniture in the house, we'll offer you some extra money for all the furniture, I'd be Yeah, sure, no worries. Because you become so detached from it, you know, because Home is where your heart is, you know, and and following what feels right for you. I still feel like as much as I want to be a gypsy lifestyle, you know, part of me still Hey. needs a base. It still needs somewhere that I can say, this is where I, you know, come home and reset and recharge and then I can go You know, but what that looks like, why not let yourself be open to that? You don't have to have a massive home. You don't have to have, you know, like, you know, the pool and everything if you don't want that. You know, it's just whatever it looks like to you and feels right. I agree. And I think it's great. I like so absolutely love that this mindset that you have. And sometimes it's it's Thank you. sad that it takes such rough times to figure it out. But it's like without those rough times, you don't know if you'd be in the same spot you were today. Well, it's like that whole thing you have to go through the lows to really appreciate the highs because otherwise Two. life would always be like this. And that's not why we signed up to be here. You know, this is not why we're here. Yep. We we were never yeah, we were never guaranteed that it was gonna be an easy roller coaster ride. It's ha for sure has its ups and downs. Yeah. Exactly. So during this what I'd call your rough patch, what was the hardest truth you had to face about yourself? That I can't do everything myself. because I was determined to be the martyr, the the sacrificial lamb, you know, I would I would make I would come in and ride and fix everything, but you're we're not we're not operating we're not meant to work that way. You know, we're meant to find people that around us that we can trust and get that support on a really beautiful level. And, you know, for me, Even knowing what I know about me now, I work better in collaborations. I work better having conversations. I work better with other people. And I was shutting that part of myself. So, you know, definitely learning that lesson that it's I have more fun collaborating, you know, but also I Mm-hmm. don't have to do everything myself. I don't have to be IT and admin and you know, a sp therapist and this and this and this and a mentor and this and this, you know. Whatever the titles are, I can actually delegate that. And if I built that business again, it would look so different now. It wouldn't have me as the center. It would just have me making it work for me. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy the the lessons learned that really come into mind after the fact. Well, that's why we go through them because if we knew the lesson Mm-hmm. we had to learn while we were going through it, we would probably run away from the lesson we had to learn. Y ~ I I can't even say how many times I would have run away. It's you know, everybody wants to either have fight or flight mode. I've always taken the flight path. I'll I'll run away from my problems for sure. I fight. ~ I fight even when I shouldn't be fighting. It's like actually, would it just been easier if I just left it alone and walked the other way? And it's so funny because sometimes now there'll be certain conversations and and I I feel myself getting sucked into them. And then I get this intuitive moment, do not engage. I'm like, okay, I won't. ~ I'm backing away. I'm backing away. Exactly, exactly. W why do you think that so many high functioning people though~ miss the signs the warning signs of burnout? Because we get so fixated on what we're supposed to be doing that we forget to feel into what we're doing. So it's like we're we and we've come from this culture of push, push, push, push, push, right? Okay, I'm just gonna push myself to the next goal, push myself to the next goal, and push myself to the next goal. You can't keep doing that. And especially if you're not enjoying it. Now, don't get me wrong, if you love what you do, if you're so excited, you like jump up in the morning, can't wait to start your day, you don't get that. You don't get the burnout because you're passionate about what you're doing and you know, like this is why I'm here, this is what I want to share. Whereas when it's something that doesn't feel in alignment with you and you feel like you're constantly pushing to make things happen, you hit your snooze button 20 times, whatever it might be, you this is when you get you're pushing yourself to do something that your body doesn't want to do, that your mind doesn't want to do, that your heart doesn't want to do, instead, you're doing it out of obligation. And this is where it can get to burnout because burnout is you're burning out your system. You're you're like it's like you're, you know, if you're driving a car, it's like you've got the brake pedal on and you're pushing the accelerator at the same time. That is why we end up in burnout. You know, if you are excited to be going in that car ride, you're not gonna put your head foot on the brake pedal. You can go. You know, you can go. I have to say, as a person guilty of this, sometimes I have to remind myself I need to have a break and rest now, especially if I'm like got a project going that I'm really excited about, Mm-hmm. you know, but that's the difference. A lot of they've done a lot of research and they've found that people who have started their own company and they're really excited and passionate about it, they can do more hours and not end up in burnout. Versus someone that just steps in and something's not in alignment, they tend to go in the burnout. So for me, my career wasn't in alignment with who I was, you know, so I was in burnout. I kept searching for the next thing to fill up my cup, not realizing I was searching in the completely the wrong place. You know. So, you know, I just thought, if I do this, if I do this, if I do this, if I do this, then it will help me. And that's where you get into that burnout as well. Yeah, for sure. And I f I I feel that staying stuck in that those moments where you're just continuously pushing through, it's so horrible on your mental health. It is. It is. And it's like even for me, like when I so part of the when I sold my company, the condition was I kept working ~ in in the company because it was hard to find speech language therapists. And I'm like, that's fine, you know. And then I kept staying even after that term ended. And the reason I kept staying was because we had a mortgage to pay and we had to, you know, pay all our bills and everything like that. And then what ended up coming out of that. was I started to numb myself to go to work. So I actually literally lost feeling. I started losing feeling in my pinky.~ it went up through my arm. I went up to the point I couldn't feel half my face. Now I have an amazing support team of Allied Health. I ~ well alternative health, I should say, not allied health. So I went to the chiropractor, I went to my biofilm practitioner, I went to the homeopath, I went to the massage therapist, I went to the acupuncturist, and that would all Fix the problem for two days and then we'll come back because I wasn't addressing the source. The source was I was numbing myself to go to work. So my body was reflecting that, that I was numbing myself to be where I didn't feel like I belonged anymore. And this is what can happen too when we try and convince ourselves that what we're doing is good for us. Our body doesn't lie, it will show up as dis-ease in our body. So you can't trick yourself. I knew I was going numb. sending myself to work. It got to a point I actually just quit my job. And I and my boss, God love him, he's like, is it cause of me? I said, no, I'm just not meant to be working here anymore. He goes, Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't want to be in your job anyway. So that's what he said to me. And I went, Okay, great. Thank you. You know, and so this is where you know, these these other things kind of come from. And when we ignore that, you know, this is why you know, so many people are like pushing themselves to keep going to jobs even though they know it doesn't feel good, or they just ignore it and then their body starts to show up up problems, you know. And I can I I can't tell you how many people I've met too and they're like, I keep losing my voice. I'm like, where aren't you speaking up in life? okay. You know, so our body body keeps the score. So if you keep trying to convince yourself that you're you're doing something even though it doesn't feel right, And you just you're trying to be that over-toxic positive mindset. I want to say there is a thing as toxic positivity, you know, then your body's gonna start showing up. Because no matter how many times I told myself, I'm doing this for my family, that wasn't enough because it wasn't filling up my cup, my cup. Yeah, yeah, and I can speak up about your your body knows it all.'Cause I I went through some medical problems and until I I mean I went through these I ha had seizures for years. I still have them, but I have them under control finally. And it was because I f went to a functional medicine doctor and they're You need to change your diet and I was like, Hell, if somebody would have told me this fifteen years ago Instead of just trying to, you know, put a band-aid on it, I would have been in a completely different space. Yeah, and I I feel that's the shift that a lot of people are starting to gravitate towards too. I don't know if it's just a random side sideway segue. But you know, we we ~ get so taut to you've got a headache, take a Tylenol or a panodol, they're panodol here, you know, and and and numb it. You know, don't worry about it. Whereas for me, I'm like, I've got a headache. What is my body trying to tell me? You know, I'm like, okay, where Mm-hmm. where is I where have I literally got a pain in my head in my life at the moment? You know. ~ or sometimes it might be, I haven't drunk enough water. That can be that simple. Or maybe I haven't had enough salts in my b in my thing today, which is so counteractive to people because we've been conditioned that salt's bad for us. Mm-hmm. But rock salt, mineral salt, Himalayan salt, Himalayan's got a whole different thing, but like Celtic salt and things like that, it has more minerals than you can get. like through your food, you know, so it's like, you know, maybe I need that today. I don't I choose not to numb my pain. I actually start to question what is my body trying to tell me? And the beauty of t living in this day and age, Travis, is what is the spiritual meaning of a sore right shoulder? And it will come up and tell you what's going on in your body. You know, or what is the spiritual meaning of a headache? Or, you know ~ I can list off some just the top of my head because I know like if you have neck pain, your head and your heart are not talking to each other. So your heart might be feeling one thing and your head's thinking another thing. So your head's your neck's in the middle going, I don't know which way to go. You know, so Mm-hmm. you know, that's where that element can come in too. But, you know, because we've been conditioned to numb ourselves to keep, you know, to keep going or to keep going, you're like, it's just your mindset. No, your mindset is like 20% of it. It's just a piece of it, yeah. Yeah. It's your energy and your body and everything else. That is where you get the biggest changes and shifts in your life when you start to listen to what your own wisdom in your body is telling you. Yeah. And that actually something like this just happened to me. We came back from a small vacation with my family and I missed some work days, but for some reason I get really anxious when I go back to work. And so yesterday it caused me to have a bad migraine. And so I ended up taking an extra day off of work, but my wife said, You know that this isn't just a migraine, right? I said, Yes, I know. It's my anxiety speaking up. I said, but I still feel like I need to get the rest in order to calm myself down and just take a day for myself. And she said, as long as you're aware that it's not just a migraine, we're on the same page. I love your wife. ~ well, this is this is a fun exercise for everyone playing along at home and you can do it to Travis. So you can write to your body or you can write to yourself to ask what's happening on a deeper level. So I I do a lot of journaling this way. So I pretend I'm having a conversation with myself. I'll be like, and I'm gonna share this example from the start of the year because it's hilarious. So I was like, I w I wasn't getting new clients at the start of the year. And I'm like, you know, we need extra money, we need cash. Like, where are my clients coming from? So I wrote to myself, why aren't I getting any new clients? And I wrote back to myself, I don't want any. Hehehehehe. Because I actually didn't want any. It was a reaction to the situation because I was like doing my podcast. I was tr finishing getting my book out because I was about to release my book. I had a lot, I was still mumming, you know, I had a lot going on. The idea of bringing on new clients as well, that would have just blown my like my mind like I would have just felt like I was running around like a headless chicken. So, you know, you can have these conversations. So it's like What is my anxiety about work teaching me? You know, why what why am I anxious about at work? And you just pretend you're talking to yourself. And when you stop thinking about it and you just pretend like you're having conversation like we are now, you'll be surprised at the things you write on the page. And sometimes I look at~ it and I'm like, really? And I'm like, yes. My my problem is is I know why I'm anxious at work and I don't know if I wanna face it yet. Well, I've learnt too that if you know better and you don't do better, the universe will create a reaction to make you do better. So do you wanna be intentionally courageous or do you want to be accidentally courageous?~ that's a good question. Sometimes I think I I become accidentally incourageous. I th I think that's just how my Yeah. So the the life goes. Yeah. And but so the difference is you can see what's coming. You can understand. Like for me, right? I knew my numbness was coming from me being at work. Now I could just keep writing that out, let the numbness get white like get worse. And then I get to a point where I'm like, I have no choice. I have to quit. You know, like there's no choice. I can't drive or whatever it would be, right? Or I can face it head on and go, all right, I'm gonna be courageous in this moment and just quit and see what happens anyway. So you're actually weirdly taking control of the situation by getting ahead of it because you're choosing not to keep burying your head in the sand and then instead you're going forward. So it's like you can feel yourself being backed into a corner. Do you quickly make a move to get out so you don't even get to that point? Or do you wait till you're backed in the corner and then punch your way out or you know, duck your way or whatever? You know, so it's about, you know, just having that courage to back yourself really more than anything. You know, or That's true. if you don't know what it is, finding someone that can support you to reflect back to you what you're missing. Yeah. Yeah, very very well said. And it's sometimes I feel that it's being willing to take that step into the unknown. Exactly. And we resist that because it's scary. Because Yes. our our mind, our ego, our mind, whatever word you want to use, wants to keep us safe. So it likes familiar, it likes routine, it likes those things. And when we challenge that and we do something that we're definitely jumping the unknown, it it challenges that whole narrative and it makes us feel a little bit unsafe. But and And sometimes people choose to stay in the situation because it's easier. Because it's like, if I if I, you know, leave my husband, then I have to figure out where I'm gonna have income, where I'm gonna live, you know, what custody looks like. If I leave that job, I don't know if I'm gonna get another job. You know, what's that gonna look like? Even though I'm miserable going to work every day, you know, and this this career has just kind of eaten me up and chewed me back So if you get that insight and you know. That you're meant to be doing something different, even when it feels scarier. If you don't do it, I promise you things will shift. I have met people that kept ignoring it and kept losing job after job after job, not because they were bad at their job. They just kept getting made redundant or downsized or something else, right? Like I actually interviewed this person. I think he lost his job 28 times through redundancy and downsizing. And then he finally went, huh? Maybe I'm not meant to be doing this job. It took him a little while to get the message through right. Uh-huh. Whereas I've met ~ other people and they could feel it coming for the third time. They're like, you know what? I've actually done. And they just kind of, you know, threw their arms up and just walked away. You know, so this is where, and I'm talking about careers, but then I've also had people in relationships where, you know, and I sometimes I feel relationships are harder than career. I don't know why. That's just my my personal feeling. Because Especially when you have kids involved, or my example is when you marry somebody, you know, when you're exchanging vows, you don't project forward and go in five years I'm gonna have a really messy divorce. You know, your your dream Mm-hmm. is I'm gonna have the happily ever after, gonna have kids, you know, we're gonna go on holidays or whatever that is for you listening. And so when we get to that point and that relationships broken down to a point that you have to step out of it and had the courage to do that. You know, it wasn't a like decision for me to divorce my first husband. It wasn't a like decision for me to walk away from my business partnership, my company. It is big, they're big I say I like, I'm the person that will let off a bomb in my life, right? I'm like, okay, I'm just making Yeah. this decision and I'll catch up with it later because Yeah. because I trust my gut instinct again. But at the same time, you know When we get stuck in that too, and I I talk about this is we we have to mourn the dream of what never happened. So sometimes we we get so stuck in what we think our life should look like or what we dreamed that we miss what's happening in front of us, which then makes us more disconnected than ever because we're not actually going, actually, my relationship is a disaster. I'm, you know, stressed all the time. I feel like I can't be myself. You know, I'm avoiding going home, I'm working longer, whatever that is, instead of, ~ but I prom I made this vow and we should be married forever. But at the same time, you know in your heart, like I actually need to step out of this relationship. And you have to, I'm gonna use your title, we have to overcome that so that you can, you know, step into that next part of you. Everyone I talk to, they won't tell you, you know. making that decision to get a divorce or going through custody or whatever was but they'll always always say, I don't regret it. You know, they they don't regret doing that decision or they don't regret going through the little bit of hard to get to the good. Because sometimes we just have to allow the old to fall apart so that we can get to the other side of that. I totally agree. And I do have a question along these lines. And I think there's one answer to this is very obvious. And I'll just say it right now, it's kids. So now yeah. I'll ask the question why do people stay in relationships when they know it's not they're not healthy? So, kids as an excuse is just an excuse. And I can say this happily because I am a mom and I understand that we feel that we need to have this stable relationship for our children so that they have both parents, whatever it is. But if you're in a toxic relationship, if you're constantly arguing all the time or fighting all the time or disrespecting each other all the time or not even wanting to be in the same kids know they feel it, they sense it, they hear it. they will start to become protectors, they will start to want to fix relationships. And what role model are you showing them that that's okay to accept that level of love for themselves? And I can promise you right now, the work that I do with clearing ancestral baggage and trauma, you know, ~ it is better to step out of the relationship and create a passive,~ a way that you can be, you know, amicable together and and find a way around that. Than fighting all the time and leaving your kids in that toxic environment. So kids should not be your excuse. They're resilient little things. They understand more than what we give them benefit for. You know, they feel everything. They're little emotional radars. If if anyone's a teacher's listening, if you're having a bad day, the kids know as soon as you walk in the room. You know, it's like little, like, you know, they're like, ~ Miss is having a bad day. Let's make it worse. You know, so ~ Yes, it can be difficult, but at the same time, I always think wouldn't you want your kids seeing you happy and healthy and enjoying life rather than tiptoeing around and being a fraction of who you you actually are? Mm-hmm. Yeah, and kind of going back to your kids notice everything.~ this was probably a month or two ago. I said something to my wife. I can't even remember what the conversation was about. And my six year old, I didn't think she was even listening or paying attention. And I what I said, I didn't think she even understood the even the maybe vaguely a little bit of it. And later on she came up to me, she said, Dad What did you mean by this? I was like,~ it just caught me off guard 'cause I thought she wasn't listening and paying attention, but they are paying attention. No. Even when you think they're not listening, they're listening. They feel it, they hear it, they take Uh-huh. it in. Especially I find from the younger they are, the more sensitive they are. So for example,~ my little human, when I think when we were moving offices, before we went into that weekend, I knew I was going to be stressed. We had three days to move an entire office and set up New space, right? So, you know, so I was like, this is gonna be full on. So I sat my little one down and I said to him, I know I'm gonna be really busy this weekend. I'm gonna look real I'm gonna be really stressed, and you're gonna feel that off me, but just know it's not to do with you. And I promise, you know, at the end of it we'll we'll do something special together. And and he was so amazing. All my staff were like, my goodness, like I think he was like four or five at the time. And my my staff were just like, wow, like he's he's been like he's so well behaved and he's so happy. But if I hadn't had that conversation with him to set him up, like this is what's gonna happen, this is what the feelings I've got, know that it's not projected at him, he would have been completely different. So sometimes, you know, we we're we think we're masking our emotions and hiding them from our kids when really we just need to label them and say to them, actually. And my son will go, Mom, you seem sad. I said, I am sad today. There's a lot going on and I'm feeling sad today. And that's okay. And so then he knows it's okay to feel that way too. You know, so this is where they just sense more. I call them little emotional radios. They just tune in and they know. But yes, never think Mm-hmm. that your child's not listening because they are. They really are. Yeah. yes. And that's a lesson I've learned many times over and over again. Yeah. And and just in case you missed it the first time, our kids are really good at reflecting back to us what we don't want to see. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ~ Very good. So I I'd I'd love to for you to kind of to switch gears here and for you to talk about my virtual obsess obsession. yeah. Well, it's not really super changing gears. So ~ look, I'll even do my little like hold up my book. Hello. so it's I started writing this book because I always wanted to write. So this was a passion that was like deep buried in me that kind of got squashed down. Like at school, I used to love creative writing assignments, especially if I was inspired. I'd write the best stories and my teacher would always be like, Wow, this is amazing. I'm like, I was inspired. But then if I was in an exam and had to do it, I'm like, ~ I have no idea. Mm-hmm. You know, this is pressure. I don't want to do it. You know, whereas if I had the space, I'd quite happily go into a a beautiful story. But I forgot about that. You know, I forgot about how much I actually liked writing and and creating things and sharing things. And it was a friend of mine, he said to me, ~ I don't know, maybe like five years ago. If you could do anything in the world, what would it be? And without even realizing, I said I would write. And I didn't know what that would look like. So probably about a year and a half ago, I had this dream. And it was like a full movie. Like I watched the the whole thing from start to finish the movie. And I went and I woke up and I went, I need to write this as a book. And it was my virtual obsession. That's what I watched. So I'm like, how am I going to do this? Because I was still working, still doing a few things at the time. So I promised myself I would write for 15 minutes a day. And I did. And I created this novel. and then I sent it off to a friend and she gave her feedback and to how to develop the characters a bit more. And then I went, okay, now I need to edit it. And as I was editing it, I ended up using Chat GPT to edit it. I want to emphasize chat did not write my book, chat edited my book. Okay. So, you know, ~ And if anyone's used chat to edit a book, you'll understand how painful and long it is because it will start really beautifully and then halfway through your chapter, it just does one word answers or one word responses. And it's like, my gosh, what you cut out all the dialogue. Who's this person? What happened? So you really have to be involved weirdly with AI. But what happened was when I was sitting there, I went, okay, well, how do I market this book? And it went, well, you've actually written a psychological thriller that makes people reflect on when loneliness becomes obsession. I went, what? And then ~ and then I realized all my clients were going through this. So they get stuck in this idea of what ~ which we've touched upon of what their life should look like, that they forget to face the reality of what's actually happening in their life, or they want to avoid themselves so much and the feeling of being lonely. That they dive into relationships that we would normally say no to. So this is what was depicted through this whole kind of novel without me even realizing it, because I was just writing what I saw. You know, I was just writing this this dream I had. And then I realized how much of a reflection it is and how easy it is to tip So the first part of the book is from Clive's perspective, who's our our victim, if you will, or our our you know, the the the person receiving the psychological stalking and virtual stalking. Anyway, and then ~ the second part's actually from Anna's point of view. And you get to understand how you can so easily just trip over from light stalking of just looking at people's social media or things like that to full on stalking to full-on obsession. You know, because in her mind she'd finally found the perfect man and it was he was going to be you know, with her no matter what, you know. So the length she went to, but also the the past that came up to block her, to say, hang on, are you sure you want to do this? You know, are you sure you want to do this? Because we've all been there where we get these these red lights and you're like, nah, nah, nah, nah, I'm just gonna ignore it and keep driving. You're like, no, no, no, no, no. And and then when you get to the other side, you're like, why didn't you warm hang on, you did warn me. You know, I did have Mm-hmm. chance to get off this train and I and I forgot to. You know, so anyway, that's how the book evolved and it ended up being a really fun project that even when I was writing it, I was like, what did she do? Because again, I was just trusting what came through. Yeah. I absolutely love that y in the end you realize that there is some~ real psychological patterns throughout the book that you observed that that's Yeah, that clearly my subconscious waved in. actually really cool. Just yeah. Yes. Yeah. H have there been any conversations that have started because of the book that surprised you? It's funny because a lot of people will talk about that read the book and they'll say it actually touched upon things in my life that made me go, oof, maybe I did miss that or maybe I put that to the side. And a lot of people, because it it makes people reflect on as well how much information we give away to technology and how easily in the wrong hands that can be flipped. Because, you know, we happily willy nilly. put all these things into AI, but it's like, well, that's going to a data center somewhere. Who's got Uh-huh. access to that, right? So it makes you start to think about that a bit more and start to pull back and go, whoa, you know, hang on. You know, let's see where where that's actually going. So and the biggest thing as well is that the book reflects Clive ends up choosing the simple life. He doesn't want to be running this company anymore, which he's built up can run itself. You know, he just wants to go find which he does, ~ not a spoiler alert, but he finds his way to making his dreams come true, you know, with without all the expectations of exactly what we talked episode of having that checklist of this is what my life should look like. You know, ~ actually no, this isn't working for me. I want it to be completely different. Yeah. Yeah, and you actually mentioned technology and it leads into a question r about relationships. How has technology changed the way we experience relationships? I feel the impact isn't meeting people. Cause I met my husband now. We met on an app. I don't think that's Mm-hmm. the problem. I feel the problem is when technology interferes with the connection. So if you go out to a restaurant and you just sit there on your phones, what's the point of that? You know, like why why aren't you having a conversation? You know, it it amazes me how many families, all the members of the families, are on their phones. Like it's just ~ blows my mind, you know, or people I guess hiding behind the technology. I have clients who, you know, they'll they'll start a relationship, but they haven't met the person. But, you know, they've been talking to them and things. But then when it comes to meeting, they don't want to do that because then I guess all their flaws are out there and everything like that. So there's like this reluctance there too. So, and then there's the aspect where people are starting to use AI to impersonate them I want to say or reply for them right so instead of going okay I'm gonna reply to this person this way I'm gonna put their SMS into into whatever and have that ai reply that is losing yourself to technologies yeah right and this is Yes. Yes. And and I have such sorry, the problem yeah I was you go ahead. I was just gonna say I have s no. I'll stop, I'll stop.~ Well, that's the thing. Like technology is there. We can embrace it. We can use it. We can allow it to help us as a tool. But when you start to let it replace you, that is where that breakdown happens in relationships. It doesn't have to be romantic. It can be in your career. It can be with friends. It can be, you know, ~ how you express yourself and share yourself. Look, I'm not gonna lie, I get I get ~ AI to write my Instagram post, but I tell it what I want. I'm like, here's what I want. Make it make this sound nice, you know, in my voice. Okay, great. Thank you. That's what I would do. Actually, no, I don't like that bit. I'm just gonna edit that before I post it. Right. So again, I'm still in that, but I'm not letting it just dictate to me. And so and I have played with this where I'll be like, write a post about this. I'm like, God, this is terrible, you know, because because again, it's not representing of me. Whereas when you do it yourself first or at least have your bullet points or whatever, it allows that. So if you're showing up to a relationship and you've you've memorized what to say based on your your stalking, like on technology or whatever it might be, you think you know that who they are, you know, then then how are you going to create a connection? Because you're already going in with assumptions rather than actually being genuinely curious and asking questions about that person. Very well said, you basically stole the words right out of my mouth. We had the the same exact thought. I was just gonna say using it as a tool and Okay, beautiful. because to me, technology is a love hate relationship. I I think it's cool. I'm a nineties kid, so I've seen, you know, we went from no cell phones to cell phones and I've seen some really cool things throughout my life, but there's also the downfall of those really cool things if you misuse them. Exactly. And this is where learning your discernment is really important. So your discernment, I call it your truth. Does this feel right for me or doesn't this feel right for me? And if it feels right for you, then by all means keep doing that. If it doesn't feel right for you, you don't have to do it. You don't Mm-hmm. have to. Even if it's on trend, you don't have to do it. It's okay. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You for sure. And I'm with you on the AI stuff, I've used it for myself to ma basically as a tool for myself to work faster and more efficiently. But I'm right in the middle of it. I don't let it post anything without me saying how it's supposed to be first. Exactly. Exactly. It's just crazy, crazy, crazy. So if someone feels disconnected from themselves today, where should they start? Come back to you, like actually get to know yourself again. I know it sounds so cliche, but take yourself out on a date by yourself, not with your kids, not with your partner. Actually go spend some time with yourself and see what brings you joy and trust that. If maybe you want to try painting and you're terrible at it, it doesn't matter. If you do it with a smile on your face and laugh about it, who cares? You tried it and you're like, okay, this isn't for me, or maybe it is for you. You know, but creating those moments. of coming back to you and having joy every day, something that makes you excited and happy, that is so important. ~ and the more that you learn that about yourself and do that, the more you'll actually become magnetic. And what I mean by that is because you're turning into your true self, you'll start attracting things, opportunities, people, ~ all those sorts of things into your life that will allow you to keep being yourself and show up because you're suddenly in alignment. And things will just start to flow to you and it it truly is magic when it happens. I I agree. You somebody said this not too long ago on this show is in order to truly love somebody you need to learn to love yourself. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And I feel there's this b I mean, this happened with me. There's been a time in my life not too long ago where I was losing myself because my wife and I now have four kids and it gets really hard to not lose yourself when you're just focusing on other people. I'm not saying that focusing on other people is not important, but you need to get some you time in there as well. Well, it's that whole analogy, fill your own cup up first and let the overflow fill everyone else. And I promise you, even I well done having four kids. I'm a one and done parent. you know, but ~ Yeah. you know, your kids need you to be full of of your energy. Your kids need you to be happy and and you know, actually happy with yourself because they need need your energy and time too, but If you haven't filled up your own cup, you're gonna run out a lot quicker. And it's so contraintuitive, creating extra space for yourself will give you more energy and time throughout the day. It's so weird, but it's true. N no, I totally believe it. It's and let's see. No. Where was my thought going? So kind of going back to the technology and relationships, I I think this question kind of goes a little bit with that. What does healthy connection actually look like in today's world? I feel it's learning to connect with yourself first and know how you show up as And then you can connect better with other people. And then those people are getting you as you. And then you can actually have heartfelt, meaningful connection because you're all showing up as yourselves. You're not putting these masks or these weird dodgy foundations. And that allows you to have that better connection. Whether it is, you know, maybe you ~ cyber stalk each other, you know, but really. Talking, don't underestimate the power of having a powerful conversation using your words and face to face. Yeah. And you know one crazy thing you said face to face. Well I I think it's like the I don't know what generation is struggling with this, but it's so I'm a millennial according to the generations. But the one below me they say is really struggling with like the face to face conversations because they've grown up texting and just using all sorts of different social media so when they meet somebody face to face They're having a hard time doing it. And I think that's just a bizarre type of thing that we live in. That's it. And and you know, that comes to create opportunities for your children just to go play at the park, you know, and Mm-hmm. with strangers. You don't have to have play dates all the time. Kids will gravitate to other kids and figure out a way to play together. It's amazing. It truly is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's really cool. I absolutely love when I see my kids go up to somebody on the playground and say, Hey, do you wanna be my friend? Even if it's for that hour and they totally forget the person afterwards. It's really cool for them to see them make that connection. Yeah, definitely. So if ~ basically one last question and then just a few follow ups. If listeners remember just one thing from this conversation, what would you hope it is? It's okay to choose yourself. Very well said. It's and it's something that's to me has been easier said than Yeah. Yeah, agreed. But I I think that learning how to choose myself over the last 'cause it hasn't happened until last like probably two or three years. But I've learned more in those last two or three years about myself than I would have ever imagined. Especially with four children, I understand. ~ Yes. Yes. Well the fourth child he's he's still really new, so he's actually almost three months old now. So he still still a big adjustment. And where can people find you? The best place is probably my website, which is willowhealing.org. ~ I'm also on Instagram a bit, which is Willowhealing sh. And if you want to find my book, My Virtual Obsession, you can find it on Amazon or any ebook reading platform really. So yeah. Great, and I will add all those to the show notes when this goes out. And last question here is we have covered a lot of ground in today's conversation. Is there anything that you would like to bring up that we did not discuss? I feel in summary it's like choose choose life your way. You have to wake up with yourself every day, no one else. You know, so be be happy with what you see staring back at you in the mirror and trust that the more you choose yourself, the the happier that smile will be. Absolutely love it. Well, Catherine, thank you so much for spending an hour with me. I've loved our conversation. I admire the work that you're doing. And I love that you're going on podcasts to share your story and help other people out. Thank you, Travis. Appreciate and thank you for having a conversation with me too. Pleasure. And thanks to all those that are listening. If this story resonated with you, please follow us and leave us a five-star review. Until next time.